[Frameworks] 16mm sound projector

[40 Frames]

On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 5:00 PM, mike rice <bacnheday at gmail.com> wrote:

> David, thanks for the extensive write-up on projectors. You mention in
> section E that the kodak pageant maxes out at 29.5 mm. I currently have the
> standard 50mm on mine and am trying to make the screen size much bigger. I
> have been looking on ebay for any and all pageant accessories and have
> stumbled on a couple Kodak Series V Adapter Ring 15/16" USA 23.5mm<http://cgi.ebay.com/Kodak-Series-V-Adapter-Ring-15-16-USA-23-5mm-/130483137635?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item1e6166ac63>(you can click the underlined section for the link to it) The seller seems
> to know nothing about its use. Would this work on my pageant? or is it
> strictly for camera use?
>
> thanks, Mike Rice




Mike,

You want a Kodak Bi-Focal Converter, it converts to wide on one side and
tele on the other. The wide is something like 41mm.

You can on occasion find a 1.5" (38mm), but their not easy to find. Kodak
and Buhl made these. Given the rarity of these lenses, they usually sell for
a lot, which is unfortunate given how poor the lens actual is.


Alain





>
>
> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 6:28 AM, David Tetzlaff <djtet53 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Shelly Silver asked:
>>
>> > if an institution was going to purchase a 16mm sound projector, which
>> > ones would you recommend - especially keeping an eye on ease of use,
>> > longevity and the ability to replace bulbs when they burn out
>>
>> Well, that depends. Will it be in one place, or moved from room to room?
>> What are the sizes of the projection spaces? The sizes of the screens
>> relative to the distance from screen to projector? Can the room be fully
>> darkened? etc. etc.
>>
>> The condensed version of what appears below is:
>> IT AIN'T REALLY ABOUT THE PROJECTOR. IT'S MORE ABOUT THE LENS. BUT I'D
>> STAY AWAY FROM EIKI IF I WERE YOU.
>>
>> ---
>>
>> I've been meaning to create a guide to 16mm projectors for awhile now, and
>> Shelly's inquiry prompted me to actually write soemthing down. I'll add some
>> illustrative photos and put it on my little film-tech website at
>> http://djt16.110mb.com/. I welcome any and all comments, suggestions etc.
>> I'd especially like to hear whether my impressions of 'real' B+H slot loads,
>> Elmo CL16 / Kodak CT1000, or any Singer models are on track with the
>> experiences of folks who have spent a lot of time with them.
>>
>> ---
>>
>> DJT's Guide to 16mm Projection (FWIW, IMHO, yada, yada, yada...)
>>
>> A.
>> If you need a really bright image (say, if you have a really big screen to
>> fill...) you might consider a Xenon lamp model, if you can afford one
>> (they're expensive). This pretty much limits you to a couple models from
>> Elmo in terms of what's readily available, especially if you want one you
>> can pick up and carry around. CAVEAT: Xenon lamps have a higher color
>> temperature than std. lamps, most 16mm prints are balanced for std.
>> tungsten, and some filmmakers care a lot about color fidelity. So, if you're
>> going to have one all-purpose projector, or you have a limited budget, a
>> Xenon is probably out.
>>
>> B.
>> You should probably only consider projectors with modern quartz lamps. Any
>> of these are common, affordable (if you look around) and easy to replace in
>> a mechanical sense as well. You'll likely want to avoid the older models
>> that use older, large tube-type conventional filament lamps. (You can tell
>> which these are if you know the electrical specs: the old lamps are not very
>> efficient, and draw between 750-1000 Watts. Quartz lamps, in contrast, draw
>> between 200-300 Watts). There are 2 categories of quartz lamps: 20-24VDC
>> (which means the projector power supply has to provide the DC voltage) and
>> 120VAC (since the lamp is powered right from the mains, the projector has
>> fewer parts and is therefore less expensive). The DC lamps are more
>> efficient -- a 250 Watt 24VDC ELC lamp is clearly brighter than a 300 Watt
>> 120VAC EYK lamp. Since used projectors are cheap enough, you'll want to get
>> one that uses DC lamps.
>>
>> C.
>> AFAIK the projectors that list an EJL 200 Watt 24VDC lamp as standard can
>> all take an ELC 250 Watt 24VDC lamp, or an even brighter ELC-HL. So  quartz
>> projectors with 24VDC lamps can be considered to have approximately equal
>> light sources (potentially anyway). This makes the prime determinant of
>> brightness the speed of the lens. 16mm projection lenses usually run between
>> f1.2 and f2. That's a whole stop, which makes a lot of difference end to
>> end. In general, you'll find faster lenses on newer projectors with wider
>> lens barrels.
>>
>> D.
>> A major factor to consider is the availability of lenses. The standard
>> lens of a 16mm projector is 50mm, which casts a pretty small image in a
>> small room (Hey, it's still bigger than a TV). Since the light output is
>> constant, the smaller the image, the brighter, which was one reason for that
>> focal length, I suspect. Anyway, in most situations, you'll probably want
>> something wider than a 50mm. The next widest prime you'll usually find is a
>> 38mm (not that you're likely to find a projector already fitted with one,
>> but sold separately). Probably good enough, though still a little long for
>> my taste in most conditions... if I'm going to project film, I want it to
>> look as cinematic as possible and fill the available screen space. On the
>> other hand, a 25mm prime is too wide for most screening situations where the
>> projector is at the back of the room. In my (limited) experience the most
>> useful focal lengths seem to be between 28-32mm, and of course they
>> didn't/don't make prime lenses
>>  in that range, and zooms that go there are rare. The most readily
>> available zooms have a wide end of 35mm.
>>
>> The wider the lens barrel, the wider the potential selection of lenses,
>> since you can get collar bushing adapters to use smaller-barrel lenses in
>> wider-barrel projectors. You can sometimes find these on eBay, or at
>> projector vendors like MTE. Larry Urbanski might also be a source (he sells
>> 16mm lenses for sure). These are basically just aluminum donuts, nothing
>> complicated, and if you can't find what you need for sale, you should be
>> able to get a machinist to make something up for you for a reasonable fee.
>>
>> Wide-barrel lenses are also usually faster than narrow-barrels (e.g. a
>> standard 50mm for a Pageant or Bell and Howell narrow-barrel is f1.6, for
>> Bell and Howell wide-barrel f1.2).
>>
>> E.
>> There are 5 common lens barrel sizes:
>>
>> Pageant size
>> ~29.4mm (my measurement) The smallest. Nothing else fits in. I've seen
>> B+H/Singer narrow-barrel lenses machined down to fit into a Pageant, (and
>> even tried to do it myself) but it's a rather dicey proposition as there
>> might not be much width of the barrel left, depending on the specific lens.
>> AFAIK there are no zoom lenses that fit into a Pageant.
>>
>> B+H and Singer (Graflex) narrow-barrel
>> ~30.4mm (my measurement) Singers are generally the same diameter and
>> threaded all down the barrel, while Bell and Howells are narrower and
>> unthreaded toward the rear of the barrel. Thus, a B+H narrow-barrel will fit
>> in a Singer though it might need a collar at the rear to move through the
>> full focus range without flopping loose, but a Singer might not go all the
>> way into a Bell and Howell... which is fine because only very old Bell and
>> Howells use the narrow-barrel lenses and you don't want one of those anyway.
>>
>> Elmo size
>> 40mm Smallest 'modern' barrel, can use old-style B+H/Singer or Pagant
>> lenses w. adapter.
>>
>> Eiki size
>> 42.5mm. Just a little bit wider than the Elmo, can use old-style
>> B+H/Singer or Pagant lenses w. adapter, can use some Elmo lenses with
>> improvised shim.
>>
>> Singer(Graflex/Telex)/B+H wide-barrel
>> The same width (52.5mm), though with slightly different grooves for
>> focusing. More or less interchangeable, and almost any of the smaller barrel
>> lenses can be used with adapters. (The reason it's 'almost' is that some
>> lenses won't go back far enough to get focus under some conditions when used
>> in projectors other than the ones they were made for.)
>>
>> F.
>> Projection lenses can be fitted with screw-on optical focal length
>> adapters, similar to those you might use on a camcorder. The Bell and Howell
>> Filmovara attachment turns wide-barrel primes into limited-range zooms,
>> providing both wider and longer focal lengths though not dramatically so.
>> Similar attachments are also available for Eiki lenses. Kodak made a
>> 'bifocal adapter' that makes the standard 50mm a bit wider or longer by
>> fixed amounts, depending on which way you attach it. You may also find that
>> focal length adapters made for camcorders will work on your projection
>> lenses, if you can get them to fit. The fronts of projection lenses tend not
>> to have standard filter threads, so the best bet may be to find an
>> attachment with rear threads just a bit narrower than the end of the lens
>> barrel, shim it up with thin strips of Nashua aluminum tape (should be
>> available at your local hardware store) and then tape the two barrels
>> together with more aluminum tape.
>>
>> A zoom in the right range has the benefit of allowing you to adjust the
>> image to fit the screen precisely, and to work equally well in rooms or with
>> screens of somewhat different sizes.
>>
>> G.
>> "Ease of use" is a canard. Since, at this point, any print you are likely
>> to screen will cost more to replace than a non-Xenon projector would, no one
>> who can't be bothered to learn how to operate a manual-thread projector
>> ought to be even touching a print. It's not rocket-science. Far more
>> important than 'ease of use' is the threat or wear or damage a projector
>> poses to the film that passes through it.
>>
>> Some mechanisms are easier on film than others, though, of course, the age
>> and condition of of the individual machine matter a much or more than the
>> design. In general though: auto-threads are the worst, manual-threads the
>> best, with slot-loads in the middle. The condition of the slot-load
>> mechanism (the mechanics that engage the film at the start, not the actual
>> projecting part) is especially important, as this linkage can wear-out or
>> gum up to the point where engaging the lever doesn't necessarily seat the
>> film in the path properly -- yielding instant shredded print.
>>
>> H.
>> Newer projectors (Eiki and Elmo) are much lighter and easier to lug around
>> than older ones (Pageant, Graflex, B+H). It's also easier to find people who
>> can repair them. Which is not to say it's easy. In fact, finding competent
>> service technicians for any 16mm projector is downright hard. So reliability
>> may be more valuable than newness.
>>
>> I.
>> So if we limit the field to quartz lamp units, and eliminate the
>> auto-threaders, there are not that many models you're likely to encounter.
>>  Herewith, my thoughts on the basic pluses and misuses of each.
>>
>> 1. 'Real' Bell and Howell
>> Slot Load  1575, 1580, 2680
>> Manual Thread 1540, 1541, 1579
>> (Bell and Howell 35XX are re-branded Eikis)
>>
>> I've tended to avoid Bell and Howell's as they don't have a particularly
>> good reputation for handling film. That said, in my limited experience with
>> them, the slot load mechanics seem to work OK, and I've never actually known
>> one to eat a print. The 1575 uses a line-level lamp (BHB) instead of a 24V
>> lamp (found in the XX80 models), but it's still pretty bright.
>>
>> PLUS: Bell and Howells have the widest selection of lenses available. Wide
>> lenses for B+H are cheaper and easier to find than those for other makes.
>> The Filmovara zoom attachment is also pretty easy to find. It fits to the
>> front of B+H wide-barrel primes, providing both wider and longer focal
>> lengths within a limited range. Lenses made for other projectors can be used
>> with adapters.
>>
>> MINUS: It's kinda scary running film through one.
>>
>> 2. Eiki SSL-O (B+H 3580)
>>
>> The most common late-model 16mm make. The SSL-OL (BH 3575) uses a 120AC
>> lamp that is a noticeable step down in brightness from the 24V ELC in the
>> standard SSL-O.
>>
>> PLUS: Lightest weight. Decent selection of lenses available. Wide lenses
>> for Eiki are moderately easy to find and usually moderately priced. There
>> are also zoom attachments that can be fit to the front of Eiki primes,
>> (similar to the B+H Filmovara) providing both wider and longer focal lengths
>> within a limited range.
>>
>> MINUS: Unreliable. I've had more problems with Eikis than any other make
>> -- in part perhaps because I've used them more as they were the 'best' units
>> available. The slot load engage mechanism is fairly complicated, subject to
>> getting worn out or gunked up, and not working quite right. Since it's built
>> in to the same lever that turns the projector on, it's easy for the movement
>> to start with the film not properly seated - which is a very, very bad
>> thing. The focus knob engages the lens barrel with a kind of faux-rubber
>> tip. This material is subject to deteriorating, turning to little bits of
>> brown goop that can migrate into the film path. Also very, very bad. So,
>> when the transmission to the reels starts slipping, you hardly even care...
>>
>> 3. Elmo CL16 (the Kodak CT1000 is a rebranded CL16)
>>
>> Similar in design and vintage to the Eiki SSL. Like the Eiki, the
>> slot-load mechanism is engaged by the main knob that starts the movement. I
>> haven't had any problems with Elmo's, though my experience with them is not
>> that extensive. Nevertheless, at this point I would trust Elmo mechanisms
>> much more than Eikis. Elmo lenses are harder to find than those for B+H or
>> Eiki, and Elmo branded lenses tend to be pretty expensive. MTE in Florida
>> usually has new ISCO 35-65 f1.3 zooms that will fit Elmo for around $250.
>> You could also use the military surplus 35-60mm f.1.5 Singer narrow barrel
>> they sell for under $100, if you obtain the proper adapter. If you can find
>> an Elmo 38mm fixed lens, you can attach an Eiki zoom adapter by jury rigging
>> with aluminum tape, and you might even be able to find or jury rig an
>> adapter to attach a Filmovara to the front.
>>
>> 4. Graflex / Telex (Singer)
>>
>> There are numerous iterations of Singer projectors, which appeared first
>> under the Graphlex rubric, then Telex. As far as I can tell they're all
>> fairly similar. Old ones have narrow barrel lenses (and large tube lamps I
>> suppose), but I've seen slot loads with quartz lamps and wide barrel lenses
>> under both the Graflex and Telex labeling. The manual thread variations have
>> a reputation for being gentle with film. These don't show up for sale that
>> often, the slot-loaders being more common. (I'm not sure the manual-thread
>> models ever had the wide-barrel lens mount.) The Singer narrow-barrel mount
>> is the same diameter as Bell and Howell narrow-barrel. There are many more
>> lenses available in this size than in the narrower Pageant barrel. So while
>> the lens situation isn't as flexible as the wider-barrel projectors, it's
>> not that bad. MTE in Florida usually has military surplus 35-60mm f1.5 zooms
>> that fit Singer narrow-barrel for $60 or so.
>>
>> The more recent Singers use the EJL/ELC 24VDC lamps, which are readily
>> available and cheap. Older models (e.g. the manual thread versions) use a
>> DKM 21.5VDC lamp, which also seems readily available and only a bit more
>> expensive. Alas I do not know how the DKM compares in brightness to the ELC
>> (both are rated at 250 Watts, so I'd guess they're similar... ???).
>>
>> AFAIK, the slot load models are OK with prints. The slot load mechanism
>> engages the film based on moving a large lever at the back of the projector
>> up and down. I think this has advantages over the Eiki/Elmo one-knob system:
>> the linkage seems simpler, sturdier, and easier to adjust if it goes out of
>> whack (not that I've tried to do that). Also, since engaging the film and
>> starting the projection require two different controls, you can easily check
>> to see of the film is seated right in the path before throwing the machine
>> into forward motion. The back of the projector comes off easily, exposing
>> the innards in a state where the projector will still function, which should
>> enable both DIY maintenance and professional service.
>>
>> One problem I had with a Telex slot-load is that the spring belts that
>> drive the reels both snapped. I don't know if that's typical though. (I got
>> replacements off a parts projector, and they held up... It's probably a good
>> idea to have spare belts on hand for any projector that has belts which can
>> be changed without major surgery... though minor surgery will likely be
>> necessary.)
>>
>> Singer wide-barrel lenses are the same diameter as Bell and Howell, so you
>> can interchange them. The Singer focuses via a thread that runs down the
>> body of the barrel, engaged by a spring detent, so the lens moves forward
>> and back in the housing as you twist is counter-clockwise or clockwise. Bell
>> and Howell projectors use a focus knob that engages a slight ribbing on the
>> lens barrel. This means that when you put a Bell and Howell lens in a Singer
>> you can only focus by pulling the lens straight in or out, and fine
>> adjustment is difficult. I consider this a minor inconvenience, not a major
>> problem.
>>
>> PLUS: Gentle with film, or at least not that dangerous. Seem simple and
>> rugged. Wide-barrel lens mount opens the most possibilities and availablity
>> of lenses in other-than-50mm focal length. Filmovara's will fit directly
>> onto Singer brand wide-barrels. You may be able to find or fabricate an
>> adapter to attach an Eiki zoom adapter or a Filmovara to the front of Singer
>> narrow-barrel lenses (there's room in front of the lens).
>>
>> MINUS: Ugly. Heavy.
>>
>> 5. Kodak Pageant 250S
>> (the Kodak CT1000 is a rebranded Elmo CL16)
>>
>> The last of the Pageant line, the 250S uses 24VDC lamps. Most of the older
>> Pageants use the large tube-style conventional filament lamps, which pose
>> potential replacement problems. I'm pretty sure there was a model using
>> 120VAC quartz lamps, but I don't know the number.
>>
>> PLUS: The most gentle with film. Highly reliable. (The kinds of problems
>> they get when do get problems don't usually threaten prints.) Iconic
>> (unmatched 'cool' factor).
>>
>> MINUS: It's really hard to find wide lenses that will fit in one of these,
>> and they're on the slow side at that. Aside from the bifocal adapter made
>> for the standard 50mm, you can't fit wide-angle or zoom attachments, even by
>> jury rigging, as the projector body will get in the way. Pageants are also
>> harder to work on than other makes, so repair may be harder to find or more
>> expensive, should you need it. Significantly heavier than Eiki or Elmo.
>>
>> J.
>> RECOMMENDATIONS
>> The only projectors I've had _extensive_ personal experience with are
>> Eikis and Pageants. Due to the nature of the problems I've had with Eikis,
>> and the number and percentage of them that have acted-up on me, I must
>> recommend against them. On the other hand, I love Pageants... but the
>> difficulty of obtaining lenses probably rules them out in most instances.
>> (By all means, if the standard 50mm f1.6 does by some odd chance suit you
>> and your screening space, Dave sez look for a 250S.)
>>
>> If you need/want more flexibility in lenses, (and you probably do), I'd
>> suggest looking for the right lens first, and then buying a projector into
>> which it will fit (or can be made to fit, if you have the hacker resources).
>> The right lens may be considerably more expensive than the projector itself,
>> and much harder to find a replacement for. In fact, you might consider the
>> projector itself to be disposable, since you'll probably be able to get a
>> working one of any of the above models on eBay for less (maybe much less)
>> than the price of repair.
>>
>> The 'Holy Grail' IMHO is a fast lens in the vicinity of 30mm. Quite hard
>> to find, though. Bell and Howell made a 30-70 f1.5 wide barrel. As I write
>> on 2/7/11, MTE has one available for $130. If I was in the market for a
>> projector, I would grab that first thing. Then I'd look for a Graflex or
>> Telex slot-load to put it in. Assuming a 30mm-ish lens was not available,and
>> I had the budget, and I didn't have the time to do lots of hunting about,
>> and I wanted something a bit easier to lug around, I'd probably get the Elmo
>> CL16 in best condition I could find on eBay and fit it with one of those
>> ISCO 35-65mm zooms from MTE.
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