[Frameworks] Making a colour film in a less toxic way

Thu Jul 11 22:14:40 UTC 2013

Awesome. the film is gorgeous & thank you for sharing the details of your process.
i may write to you off list when i take up this process myself if you're willing to walk me more closely thru it.
TY again

enjoy today...

Dinorah de Jesús Rodríguez
Multimedia Artist

solislandmediaworks.com
artcinematic.blogspot.com
elusivelandscape.blogspot.com
youtube.com/user/solisland
mujercitamia.wordpress.com

@sol_island

On Jul 11, 2013, at 5:17 PM, Cherry Kino wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I'm really pleased there's this conversation going on, it's making me think about being so much more careful. I would love to avoid using toxic chemistry altogether.
> 
> I recently travelled to Finland to do some filmmaking and photography using methods that tread lighter on the earth (and on us!), and this is one of the films I came up with. It was processed in Caffenol (coffee, washing soda, and vitamin C) found in local Finnish shops. I had to look around a fair bit, as washing soda is known as Natrium Karbonati or something, since the older Latin version of sodium was natrium, and that worried me for a bit, thinking 'is it the same thing??', but yes it is. The coffee was the cheapest possible (often best for caffenol). The Vitamin C was from a hardware store that sold harnesses and things for animals (I was in the middle of the Finnish countryside after all!), and was super strength Vitamin C for horses!
> 
> So anyway, I processed the film like this, and then I fixed it in sea saltwater - 300g sea salt dissolved in 1 litre water. Almost saturated. Hard to get it all to dissolve, but got there. Then fixed the film for about 20 hours. Or until I could wait no more! I then painted it using Peerless Watercolours, which are totally eco and intended for tinting photographs (the watercolours are actually paper impregnated with eco dyes), then digitised the film, and flipped it to a positive, and tweaked the colour balance. The sound is also of the forest. 
> 
> Although there was some toxicity (the heavy metals in the sea salt fixer, for example), this way of making a colour film went a little easier on the earth, and on me. I hope you like it. 
> 
> https://vimeo.com/69814260
> 
>  
> x
> 
> 
> Martha Jurksaitis
> Analogue Film and Photography Artist
> 
> M: 07935 916 560
> 
> On 11 Jul 2013, at 01:49, Átomo quatro sete <atomo47 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Im also trying to use less toxic chemistry for some time, 
>> 
>> For film developer i'm trying to use phenidone instead of metol, and using ascorbic acid instead of hidroquinone, i had very good results, not only with caffenol-c but also with ascorbic-acid based developers, 
>> 
>> i'm also investigating other type of bleaches, i'm very interested in the information you shared here, i will also share results of my work soon,
>> 
>> But back to the safety theme, I must say that when i started to develop around 1998-99 i went through a lot of risks, potassium dichromate was one of my biggest problems, i knew it was dangerous, but i was too eager to start developing, so i had no proper mask, poor ventilation and sometimes i had no gloves... (but i had a company to get the used developer, bleach etc. because it was the same that worked with the college photography laboratory)
>> 
>> Nowadays i'm very carefull, i use lab clothes, mask, proper ventilation, gloves, etc.
>> 
>> And i must say i got specially carefull after my doctor found a 2cm lump in my thyroid, at first i thought i was finished, but he said it looked benign, i still made some tests just to confirm, because of it's size (i'm still waiting for the results)
>> 
>> It's origin might not have anything to do with use of toxic chemistry, but there is a lot of research that talk about it's relation with chromium exposure, so who knows?
>> 
>> The reason i'm telling you this is not to talk about my personal dramas, or to panic anyone, but to share my personal concern about toxic chemistry handling procedures
>> 
>> I still think it's safe to work with toxic chemistry, but everyone should be very careull about it, James, Robert, Martha, Kevin and others pointed very important details, 
>> 
>> Indeed the real danger is using chemistry without knowing it's risks and proper procedures, or share a lab with people that don't know that, or simply people that ignore it,
>> 
>> It really could be nice to have detailed information and safety procedures with specific chemistry in filmlabs.org I have some books about it, one is "The Film Developing Cookbook" by Steve Anchell and Bill Troop, but i never found any book with extensive information about toxic chemistry and it's dangers, the internet has a lot of information but not specific to film developing chemistry...
>> 
>> Thank you all for sharing this vital information,
>> 
>> All best
>> 
>> Ricardo Leite
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 2013/7/5 James <jamesrholcombe at gmail.com>
>> Hi
>> 
>> I also didn't know that the r9 bleach can be used to such an extent, we normally 'dump' (by which I mean collect for recycling by the company who sell us the Dichromate / acid which is basic chemicals in the UK) after 12 rolls trix (or equivalent stocks) s8 or 6 rolls of 16mm. 
>> 
>> I think it would be really useful if there was a table or some data on filmlabs.org showing chemical mixes to film yields for E6 /c41 / b/w rev with d19 and r9 bleach, as well as rules / guidelines for artists hand processing in b/w neg say d76 or xtol. Maybe this already exists on the site or elsewhere, in which case could someone point me towards it?
>> 
>> We invested a long time ago in a copy of a book called 'overexposure' which is written for hand processing stills / prints. It is really useful as it lists each chemical used in every process, it's toxicity, effects on the human body and viable substitutes. It also contains a lot of information on building darkroom spaces, the importance of ventilation and as Robert says, the importance of chemical safety in handling, mixing and application.
>> 
>> I have noticed at no.w.here more and more artists coming through the lab via colleges / universities who are simply not given a proper darkroom induction or told about the nature of the chemicals they are using, so we are writing a comprehensive darkroom handbook for the lab and artists hand processing which people have to read as part if their darkroom induction. I have also seen too many artists mixing chemicals like dichromate in spring water bottles, in one case using our open kettle to heat a bottle of colour bleach (the kettle was recycled for expressly heating chemistry after that). 
>> There is also the story of the drunk flatmate who drank a bottle if b/w developer after finding it in the fridge in a bottle labelled 'Saki'...
>> 
>> A retailer in London where we always used to get our chemistry were visited by the anti - terror police a year or so ago who were specifically interested in who had been buying dichromate, and also told them that they had to desist selling it as of that moment, despite the fact that it features in so many alternative process formulas. I think the purchase of dichromate in this country by an individual will be made illegal soon, as well as sulphuric acid due to a number of high profile acid attacks on people although this may be a brand if drain cleaner called one shot which is 96% sulphuric acid, which can be purchased for £4 from hardware shops next to the lab and which I have used in place of acid in r9 bleach.
>> 
>> I also think it is wonderful that there are potentials to work outside if these traditional toxic formulas though and as Robert has pointed out this is where artist innovation and experimentation can be really exciting, so thanks Kevin Martha, and Robert for these ideas!
>> 
>> James
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On 4 Jul 2013, at 22:27, Cherry Kino <cherrykinocinema at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Robert - you do right. We all need this information, and I agree, we mustn't risk our health, it's far too precious. 
>>> 
>>> I had no idea you could keep a batch of r9 and re-use it over and over. Thanks for that info too.
>>> 
>>> X Martha 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On 4 Jul 2013, at 19:20, Robert Schaller <email at handmadefilm.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I want to echo Esther's warning here, and particularly to point out that BOTH dichromate and permanganate are toxic, and must be handled with great care.  There is no magic bullet here.  Both are bad.  Dichromate seems to get worse ratings on MSDS sheets, getting a 4 (on a scale of 0 - 4) as a health hazard, as opposed to the 2 that Permanganate gets.  But looking at their respective Material Data Safety Sheets (MSDS), that for Dichromate (http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/K2Cr2O7.html) says:
>>>> 
>>>> "May be fatal if swallowed. Causes gastrointestinal tract burns. May cause kidney damage. May cause perforation of the digestive tract."
>>>> 
>>>> Is this noticeably worse than what the Permanganate sheet (http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/KMnO4.htm) says?
>>>> 
>>>> "May cause severe and permanent damage to the digestive tract. May cause severe gastrointestinal tract irritation with nausea, vomiting and possible burns.  May cause liver and kidney damage. May cause perforation of the digestive tract. May cause central nervous system effects. May be harmful if swallowed."
>>>> 
>>>> So, Permanganate is only possibly "harmful if swallowed," whereas Dichromate "may be fatal if swallowed."  I think that the important point to be made is that you can't treat either casually.
>>>> 
>>>> This has some consequences for us as filmmakers.  These are serious chemicals.  They can be used safely in a lab or dedicated space, using standard lab procedures -- gloves, lab coat, respirator when manipulating powder.  They CANNOT be safely used in a living space like a bathroom or the kitchen sink.  If the only space you have is one that is part of your living space, DON"T USE THESE CHEMICALS!!!!!! 
>>>> 
>>>> I once taught at a school which gave reversal bleach (Dichromate-based R-9 bleach) to students to take home and use in the bathroom.  Whenever I came in to the darkroom to teach, I would find orange stains and pools of this stuff on every horizontal surface in the room.  It was, frankly, terrifying.  These compounds are usually not handled in fatal ways -- none of the students died -- but they have long-term health effects.  Dichromate is listed as a carcinogen.
>>>> 
>>>> Artistic success is not worth sacrificing your health, not even if that ill effect just means that you die at 70 instead of 80.  Please be careful!  I hate to see artists playing fast and loose with poisonous chemicals, particularly when they don't understand the danger.  In the case of reversal bleach, we're asking the it to dissolve silver metal, after all, and very few things can do that.  It should come as no surprise that the chemicals that do are corrosive and reactive, to our bodies as well, and not in a good way.
>>>> 
>>>> For the record, I use R-9 Dichromate bleach, knowing full well that it is toxic.  I use it with great care and respect, with protective gear, in a dedicated darkroom.  I have not moved to using Permanganate, which is at best only marginally less toxic.  Both would require the same amount of care in handling and use, neither goes down the drain.  Meanwhile,  I have found that a 2 gallon batch of R-9 lasts me about nine years.  I've only had to mix it up a handful of times in my entire life, and have produced virtually no waste.  Moreover, the toxicity of Chromium appears to depend entirely on its oxidation state: Chromium VI, that is in Dichromate, is bad, but Chromium III is an essential nutrient.  It only works as bleach in its toxic VI state, but it seems like the waste could be neutralized by flipping it to the III state.
>>>> 
>>>> Kevin's use of Potassium Ferricyanide might be a less toxic option -- Ferricyanide, despite its ill-sounding name, is not nearly as toxic.  Good for him for figuring that one out, but as he says, it's experimental -- but that should only make it more appealing to many on this list!
>>>> 
>>>> Sorry for the extended rant, but the issue of chemical safety always gets to me.
>>>> 
>>>> --Robert Schaller
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:53 PM, WORM.filmwerkplaats wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> actually the potassium permanganate is even worse then dichromate. and mixed with alcohol violently explosive. 
>>>>> best esther
>>>>> 
>>>>> (Op 03-07-13 19:05, Kevin Rice schreef:
>>>>>> Martha,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sodium Bisulfate can be used as a general substitute for sulphuric acid in most cases. Therefore, you can formulate a bleach that uses Sodium Bisulfate as an acidifier and Potassium Permanganate as a bleaching agent. However, I'm not exactly sure what the substitution rate is suppose to be, but judging by other substitution rates a rough estimate would be something like this:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Water @ 15 C.......................750.00 ml
>>>>>> Sodium Bisulfate...................275.00 g
>>>>>> Potassium Permanganate......4.00 g
>>>>>> Water to Make......................1000.00 ml
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> To be more precise, however, you can use a pH meter to dissolve Sodium Bisulfate to a target pH of 0.7 / Litre (that's pH prior to adding Potassium Permanganate).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Beyond this, I'm not aware of many other options for substituting the bleach. I have, however, been developing film as reversal for the past year using an alternative, 3-bath process which relies on the use of an alkaline ferricyanide bleach, or alternatively a slightly acidified ferric ammonium EDTA blix (nearly identical to the blix solutions from E6 or C41 kits). However, the process is still (and probably always will be) experimental and should not be considered a replacement for the conventional B&W reversal process as it relies on the use of toners and thus produces auto-toned imagery. The benefits, however, are an increase in 'archivability' and a hugely superior D-max (mainly attributable       to the use of the toner). I've also been getting an increase in dynamic range of 2 or more stops, but I believe that's more of a result of specific developing techniques than of the process itself.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Anyway, I want to take the time to produce a detailed write up of the process for people who are interested. I'll see if I can get one done before the end of the month. For an early test of the process, you can check out this video here: https://vimeo.com/51802644
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ***
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Kevin Rice
>>>>>> processreversal.org
>>>>>> pcn03031989.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 08:20:22 +0100
>>>>>> From: Cherry Kino <cherrykinocinema at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> To: forum labo <forum at filmlabs.org>, "flrncrmr at gmail.com"
>>>>>>         <flrncrmr at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Labos] [Frameworks] Alternative to sulphuric acid in b/w
>>>>>>         reversal film developing!
>>>>>> Message-ID: <5B7D389E-E145-4CEE-975B-5C8C00492D64 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Florian!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I knew it was very dangerous, but not quite how dangerous... Oh my. I will be extra, extra careful, and will add your info to my blog post today too.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So - new challenge: please can someone find an alternative to potassium dichromate?!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers again,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Martha x
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 1 Jul 2013, at 19:32, Florian Cramer <flrncrmr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> > I reblogged it on the German filmkorn blog: http://www.filmkorn.org/saurefreie-umkehrentwicklung-von-schwarzweissfilm/
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > But as you write in your original posting, people should be aware of the health risks of Potassium dichromate which according to Wikipedia is "one of the most common causes of chromium dermatitis; [...] especially of the hand and fore-arms, which is chronic and difficult to treat. Toxicological studies have further illustrated its highly toxic nature. With rabbits and rodents, concentrations as low as 14 mg/kg have shown a 50% fatality rate amongst test groups. [...] As with other CrVI compounds, potassium dichromate is carcinogenic and should be handled with gloves and appropriate health and safety protection. The compound is also corrosive and exposure may produce severe eye damage or blindness.[9] Human exposure further encompasses impaired fertility, heritable genetic damage and harm to unborn children."
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Florian
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 6:41 PM, Cherry Kino <cherrykinocinema at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >> Hello all!
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I just developed a test strip of Tri-X Super 8 reversal film using a bleach solution that doesn't require sulphuric acid or potassium permanganate! I've written a blog post about it here, check it out if, like me, you don't want to risk using sulphuric acid because you're clumsy and don't have tons of protective gear!
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> http://cherrykino.blogspot.co.uk/
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I don't have any scans to share just yet, but I just wanted to spread the word since I'm really happy with the results and it is essentially, for photographic / film purposes, the same solution.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Warmest,
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Martha Jurksaitis
>>>>>> >> Analogue Film and Photography Artist
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> M: 07935 916 560
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> 
>> -- 
>> ATOMO47
>> 
>> http://www.casa.fmleao.pt/en 
>> 
>> Independent Film Lab - super8, 16, 35mm
>> Porto, Portugal
>> 
>> 
>> Telefone:+3512636628
>> Endereço electrónico: atomo47 at gmail.com
>> 
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