[Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm (laska jimsen)

[Sasha Waters Freyer]

Hi Laska,

This is do-able, still using the FCP 7 > Cinematools > neg conform
workflow. Of course, since HD files don't have the luxury of TC burn-in
like the old SD tape-transfers did (outside TV Safe), you are not able to
see the edge numbers on the digital transfer.  The way I work around this
is to manually log the first frame of picture - check the neg physically
then write down the edge # just as it might appear in a TC burn in.  Then
follow all the usual steps, entering the first frame edge number into
Cinematools, making sure that your clip begins with that same EXACT  first
frame. and your Edit list at the end should be correct.  Should be.
 Sometimes I randomly have numbers missing and I check the picture (on the
neg!) against the video edit to the extent that I can.  This all assumes
you are doing the neg conform yourself, not sending it out, b/c it is
pretty wonky.  But it's worked for me twice!


Sasha




On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 7:00 AM, <frameworks-request at jonasmekasfilms.com>
wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: 16mm --> HD --> 16mm (laska jimsen)
>    2. Re: 16mm --> HD --> 16mm (Jodie)
>    3. Re: 16mm --> HD --> 16mm (John Woods)
>    4. Paris + London (leandro listorti)
>    5. Re: Paris + London (Pip Chodorov)
>    6. Re: Paris + London (nicky.hamlyn at talktalk.net)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: laska jimsen <laskaj at gmail.com>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at jonasmekasfilms.com>
> Cc:
> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2014 10:07:03 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm
> Trying again now that Frameworks is back up and running
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:13 AM, laska jimsen <laskaj at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm digging up this old thread to see if anyone has any additional
>> thoughts/experience/advice about this workflow.
>>
>> I'm still using FCP7 and would love to transfer the film to HD and use
>> that edit as a digital master while simultaneously generating an EDL
>> through CinemaTools to cut the film. I did the Film > Telecine >
>> FCP/CinemaTools > EDL > Neg Cutter workflow many years ago in SD and an
>> older version of FCP and it was absolutely frame perfect. But it sounds
>> like that may be a bust in HD?
>>
>> Thanks for any advice!
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Laska
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 3:55 PM, Amy Basen <abasen at calarts.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Jodie,
>>> I thought the same thing. The keycode is in the metadata so you don't
>>> need the window burn (except when you do).
>>>
>>> My EDL did not match my neg because my flex files were a total mess.
>>> Fotokem did the telecine to HDCAM, created the ProRes files and created the
>>> flex files. I thought I was saving time and money. It should have worked,
>>> but it turned into a massive headache instead. I had to crosscheck the
>>> Cinema Tools flex file keycode against the ProRes file which I checked
>>> against the work print - then I had to enter the actual/accurate keycode
>>> manually in Cinema Tools. It really makes you doubt when cutting your neg.
>>>
>>> Editing from a window burn version doesn't guarantee against bad EDLs.
>>> My friend had the EDL problem as well, but was able to crosscheck against
>>> his window burn. It makes it easier to correct and to do so confidently. I
>>> completely understand neg cutters requiring that.
>>>
>>> Skipping a step is only a time saver if the step was unnecessary which
>>> can only be determined in hindsight.
>>>
>>> If you still want to go that route, I would recommend you make sure the
>>> lab knows which version of FCP you are using. They need to make the flex
>>> files in that version and you need to stay in that version. This all
>>> happened when the school was between 6 and 7, so it could have caused or
>>> exacerbated  the problem, but Fotokem wasn't sure.
>>>
>>> :)
>>> amy
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:42 PM, Jodie Mack <jodiemack77 at hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Calling all contemporary workflow afficionados!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am working on a new 16mm project and considering making an EDL from a
>>>> telecine via Cinema Tools and FCP.  From the EDL, I will cut my
>>>> negative and make a sound print via A/B rolls.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This will be my first time using a telecine and Cinema Tools to edit,
>>>> and most of the information I’ve found involves a two-transfer telecine
>>>> process (all dailies in SD first then select shots from EDL in HD).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My shooting ratio is fairly low. I’d like to avoid transferring twice
>>>> and use my HD edit as my video master. So, if possible, I’d like to just go
>>>> ahead and transfer my rushes to HD Pro Res 24fps (no window burn) with
>>>> Evertz keylog file, edit in FCP, generate an EDL, and cut my negative
>>>> without running into any issues (3:2 pulldown or otherwise). Can any of you
>>>> foresee any problems with this simplified, online-all-the-time workflow?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am I being naïve? I feel like this method could work for me - the two
>>>> transfer process seems designed for large-scale productions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If any of you have worked this way or teach this workflow, I’d surely
>>>> appreciate any advice you can offer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jodie Mack
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> FrameWorks mailing list
>>>> FrameWorks at jonasmekasfilms.com
>>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Amy Basen
>>> California Institute of the Arts
>>> Film Services Manager
>>> 24700 McBean Parkway
>>> Valencia, CA 91355
>>> 661-253-7886
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> FrameWorks mailing list
>>> FrameWorks at jonasmekasfilms.com
>>> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jodie <jodiemack77 at hotmail.com>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at jonasmekasfilms.com>
> Cc:
> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2014 12:48:46 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm
> Hello Laska,
>
> I used that workflow (Film > Telecine > FCP7/CinemaTools > EDL/Cut List >
> Neg Cutter) after this thread.
> It actually worked out great, as the "24fps" (23.98) transfer is actually
> frame accurate within your FCP 23.98 sequence.
> For the EDL>Neg Cutter process, you absolutely need to make sure there are
> ZERO effects WHATSOEVER within your timeline: no contrast, no color, no
> scaling, nothing. Anything will send the computer spinning and provide
> inaccurate results. I was lucky enough to have work print to check against,
> but a color adjustment I didn't catch the first time definitely caused
> Cinema Tools to export an incorrect frame count for those few shots. After
> removing the filters, CinemaTools provided an accurate list. But, you
> definitely don't want to run into that sort of issue at the negative stage.
> So, if you have no work print, just take extra care to make sure your
> sequence is clean. You can also make sure your sound (if you have) ends at
> the same frame number as your cut list and so on.
>
> For a few other projects, I have skipped the CinemaTools stage and simply
> counted frames from the beginning of each shot when matching my film to my
> video edit. To me, HD actually brings simplicity to this process. Time's
> not time, but frames are frames!
>
> Good luck!
>
> Jodie Mack
> Assistant Professor of Animation
> Dartmouth College
> www.jodiemack.com
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: John Woods <jawoods01 at yahoo.ca>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at jonasmekasfilms.com>
> Cc:
> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2014 13:09:22 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] 16mm --> HD --> 16mm
> I did use FCP to get an edit list in 2009. I used SD video with burn in
> code. Got Flex files from a transfer from Deluxe Vancouver. The used Cinema
> Tools to convert the files at home. However as I recall there was a few
> kinks in the workflow. Normally my digital edits are chaotic with clips
> stacked all over themselves on the timeline and this caused problems when I
> created the initial EDL. An editor pal said that I needed to simplify the
> timeline. So I re-arranged the cut onto a single line and also had to make
> sure that I used the fade/dissolve tools rather than using the 'pen' tool
> to create my own fades. I double checked the EDL with the burn in code and
> it was perfect!
>
> With a 24fps HD timeline I don't see why it wouldn't work. As per Jodies
> advice. Do everything very simple and clean and you'll be fine.
>
> John
>
>
>   On Sunday, July 6, 2014 9:48:56 AM, Jodie <jodiemack77 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>  Hello Laska,
>
> I used that workflow (Film > Telecine > FCP7/CinemaTools > EDL/Cut List >
> Neg Cutter) after this thread.
> It actually worked out great, as the "24fps" (23.98) transfer is actually
> frame accurate within your FCP 23.98 sequence.
> For the EDL>Neg Cutter process, you absolutely need to make sure there are
> ZERO effects WHATSOEVER within your timeline: no contrast, no color, no
> scaling, nothing. Anything will send the computer spinning and provide
> inaccurate results. I was lucky enough to have work print to check against,
> but a color adjustment I didn't catch the first time definitely caused
> Cinema Tools to export an incorrect frame count for those few shots. After
> removing the filters, CinemaTools provided an accurate list. But, you
> definitely don't want to run into that sort of issue at the negative stage.
> So, if you have no work print, just take extra care to make sure your
> sequence is clean. You can also make sure your sound (if you have) ends at
> the same frame number as your cut list and so on.
>
> For a few other projects, I have skipped the CinemaTools stage and simply
> counted frames from the beginning of each shot when matching my film to my
> video edit. To me, HD actually brings simplicity to this process. Time's
> not time, but frames are frames!
>
> Good luck!
>
> Jodie Mack
> Assistant Professor of Animation
> Dartmouth College
> www.jodiemack.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks at jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: leandro listorti <leandro.listorti at gmail.com>
> To: "frameworks at jonasmekasfilms.com" <frameworks at jonasmekasfilms.com>
> Cc:
> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2014 22:02:48 -0300
> Subject: [Frameworks] Paris + London
>
> Hi all frameworkers,
>
> my name is Leandro Listorti, from Argentina. I am going to be visiting
> Paris & London from 7 to 24 July. I appeal to our common interests to ask
> you recommendations on places and small and lesser known venues I should
> visit. Also where to buy S8 and 16mm stock.
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
> --
> Leandro Listorti
> --
> m. leandro.listorti at gmail.com
> c. +54.911.6754.0994
> s. leandrolistorti
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Pip Chodorov <frameworks at re-voir.com>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at jonasmekasfilms.com>
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 07:38:35 +0200
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Paris + London
>  Hi Leandro,
> we sell some S8 and 16mm stock as well as super-8 cameras at Re:Voir/The
> FIlm Gallery in Paris 10 (see re-voir.com for details). You're welcome to
> visit M-F 11-6.
> In London you can get some from No.W.Here lab in Bethnal Green.
> Pip
>
>
>
> At 22:02 -0300 6/07/14, leandro listorti wrote:
>
> my name is Leandro Listorti, from Argentina. I am going to be visiting
> Paris & London from 7 to 24 July. I appeal to our common interests to ask
> you recommendations on places and small and lesser known venues I should
> visit. Also where to buy S8 and 16mm stock.
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: nicky.hamlyn at talktalk.net
> To: frameworks at jonasmekasfilms.com
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2014 02:36:05 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Paris + London
> Widescreen Centre in central London sells most of the available 16mm and
> Super 8 stocks. Not cheap though: https://www.widescreen-centre.co.uk/
>
> Nicky.
>
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: leandro listorti <leandro.listorti at gmail.com>
> To: frameworks at jonasmekasfilms.com <frameworks at jonasmekasfilms.com>
> Sent: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 2:03
> Subject: [Frameworks] Paris + London
>
>   Hi all frameworkers,
> my name is Leandro Listorti, from Argentina. I am going to be visiting
> Paris & London from 7 to 24 July. I appeal to our common interests to ask
> you recommendations on places and small and lesser known venues I should
> visit. Also where to buy S8 and 16mm stock.
>
>  Thanks in advance.
>
>  --
> Leandro Listorti
> --
> m. leandro.listorti at gmail.com
> c. +54.911.6754.0994
> s. leandrolistorti
>
> _______________________________________________
> FrameWorks mailing listFrameWorks at jonasmekasfilms.comhttps://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks at jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>
>


-- 
‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡‡

Sasha Waters Freyer
Chair, Department of Photography & Film
VCU School of the Arts
325 N. Harrison St. / PO Box 843088
Richmond, VA 23284

tel. 804.828.2162
email: swfreyer at vcu.edu
http://www.arts.vcu.edu/photofilm/
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