[Frameworks] Frameworks Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
Michael Sicinski
mjsicinski at gmail.com
Thu Nov 5 12:36:02 CST 2020
Re: pointless ad hominems and four-page analyses. I left this group a long
time ago because of all that crap, and I did my fair share of it in my
younger days.
But I will say that, although Fred and I have had disagreements over the
years, there aren't many people I've learned more from with respect to
experimental film. If Chicago doesn't want him (!!), Houston waits with
open arms.
----------------------
Michael Sicinski
6106 Craigway
Spring, TX 77389
USA
(713) 410-4048
[he/him/his]
On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 7:50 AM <frameworks-request at film-gallery.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Bernard Roddy)
> 2. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Ryder White)
> 3. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Samirah Alkassim)
> 4. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Florian Cramer)
> 5. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Bernard Roddy)
> 6. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Fred Camper)
> 7. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Bruce Cooper)
> 8. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Thomas Dexter)
> 9. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Brandon Walley)
> 10. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Eric Theise)
> 11. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Fred Camper)
> 12. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Evan Greene)
> 13. OOOPS! / PiL + Experimental Film and Photochemical Practices
> + filmstocks database (Eric Theise)
> 14. 8mm projector (Marie Kochaver)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bernard Roddy <roddybp0 at gmail.com>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 12:40:19 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> I read the first four pages. One can hear in this the debates associated
> with higher education and the resources available to would-be students,
> hiring patterns and decisions about what programs to cut or what
> technologies to teach. It feels like some kind of report to a dean or to a
> chief executive officer who would otherwise be reading the Wall Street
> Journal about the new iPhone and investment strategy. One can surmise that
> this discourse also turns on questions concerned with the liberal arts and
> the value of course work in which "currency" is not respected. Could this
> survive more fruitfully in the context of studio art programs and course
> work that include creative writing? We're looking at a student body that
> enrolls for reasons that are difficult to translate into other cultures or
> economies.
>
> Bernie
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:10 AM Kim Knowles <kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> OOOPS!, well it seems I attached the whole book rather than the flyer
>> (mid-semester fatigue!!), so enjoy! But if you do want to buy the physical
>> copy here’s the flyer.
>>
>> Happy reading!
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Kim Knowles <kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, 3 November 2020 at 13:57
>> *To: *Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
>> *Subject: *New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical Practices
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Frameworkers,
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m delighted to announce the publication of my book *Experimental Film
>> and Photochemical Practices*, part of the Palgrave Macmillan series in
>> Experimental Film and Artists’ Moving Image:
>> https://www.palgrave.com/gp/book/9783030443085. This has been an epic
>> project, shaped by many people on this list. Thank you so much to everyone
>> who contributed, both directly and indirectly.
>>
>>
>>
>> I attach a flyer, which entitles you to 20% off the original price.
>>
>>
>>
>> Description:
>>
>> This book assesses the contemporary status of photochemical film practice
>> against a backdrop of technological transition and obsolescence. It argues
>> for the continued relevance of material engagement for opening up
>> alternative ways of seeing and sensing the world. Questioning narratives of
>> replacement and notions of fetishism and nostalgia, the book sketches out
>> the contours of a photochemical renaissance driven by collective passion,
>> creative resistance and artistic reinvention. Celluloid processes continue
>> to play a key role in the evolution of experimental film aesthetics and
>> this book takes a personal journey into the work of several key
>> contemporary film artists. It provides fresh insight into the communities
>> and infrastructures that sustain this vibrant field and mobilises a wide
>> range of theoretical perspectives drawn from media archaeology, new
>> materialism, ecocriticism and social ecology.
>>
>>
>>
>> Book launch details to follow.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Kim Knowles
>>
>> Experimental Film Programmer
>>
>> EIFF is an accredited Real Living Wage employer.
>>
>> ===========================================================
>> KEEP IN TOUCH WITH EIFF
>> Become a web member for FREE and receive news and offers:
>> http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk/register
>> Follow EIFF at: https://twitter.com/edfilmfest or
>> http://www.facebook.com/edfilmfest
>> ===========================================================
>> t. +44(0)131 228 4051
>> w. http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk
>> 88 Lothian Road, Edinburgh EH3 9BZ Scotland, United Kingdom
>> The Edinburgh International Film Festival Limited is a subsidiary of the
>> Centre for the Moving Image. Registered in Scotland No: SC132453. VAT No:
>> 502 548861. Registered Office: 88 Lothian Road, Edinburgh.
>> --
>> Frameworks mailing list
>> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
>> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Ryder White <ryder.white at gmail.com>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 13:33:58 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Do other people find Bernie’s unsolicited critiques useful? Seems to me
> that if you don’t like it, don’t read it. But nobody needs you to throw
> shade on something they’ve put a lot of hard work into.
>
> R
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:41 Bernard Roddy <roddybp0 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I read the first four pages. One can hear in this the debates associated
>> with higher education and the resources available to would-be students,
>> hiring patterns and decisions about what programs to cut or what
>> technologies to teach. It feels like some kind of report to a dean or to a
>> chief executive officer who would otherwise be reading the Wall Street
>> Journal about the new iPhone and investment strategy. One can surmise that
>> this discourse also turns on questions concerned with the liberal arts and
>> the value of course work in which "currency" is not respected. Could this
>> survive more fruitfully in the context of studio art programs and course
>> work that include creative writing? We're looking at a student body that
>> enrolls for reasons that are difficult to translate into other cultures or
>> economies.
>>
>> Bernie
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:10 AM Kim Knowles <kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> OOOPS!, well it seems I attached the whole book rather than the flyer
>>> (mid-semester fatigue!!), so enjoy! But if you do want to buy the physical
>>> copy here’s the flyer.
>>>
>>> Happy reading!
>>>
>>> Kim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Kim Knowles <kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk>
>>> *Date: *Tuesday, 3 November 2020 at 13:57
>>> *To: *Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
>>> *Subject: *New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical Practices
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Frameworkers,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I’m delighted to announce the publication of my book *Experimental Film
>>> and Photochemical Practices*, part of the Palgrave Macmillan series in
>>> Experimental Film and Artists’ Moving Image:
>>> https://www.palgrave.com/gp/book/9783030443085. This has been an epic
>>> project, shaped by many people on this list. Thank you so much to everyone
>>> who contributed, both directly and indirectly.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I attach a flyer, which entitles you to 20% off the original price.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Description:
>>>
>>> This book assesses the contemporary status of photochemical film
>>> practice against a backdrop of technological transition and obsolescence.
>>> It argues for the continued relevance of material engagement for opening up
>>> alternative ways of seeing and sensing the world. Questioning narratives of
>>> replacement and notions of fetishism and nostalgia, the book sketches out
>>> the contours of a photochemical renaissance driven by collective passion,
>>> creative resistance and artistic reinvention. Celluloid processes continue
>>> to play a key role in the evolution of experimental film aesthetics and
>>> this book takes a personal journey into the work of several key
>>> contemporary film artists. It provides fresh insight into the communities
>>> and infrastructures that sustain this vibrant field and mobilises a wide
>>> range of theoretical perspectives drawn from media archaeology, new
>>> materialism, ecocriticism and social ecology.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Book launch details to follow.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Kim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kim Knowles
>>>
>>> Experimental Film Programmer
>>>
>>> EIFF is an accredited Real Living Wage employer.
>>>
>>> ===========================================================
>>> KEEP IN TOUCH WITH EIFF
>>> Become a web member for FREE and receive news and offers:
>>> http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk/register
>>> Follow EIFF at: https://twitter.com/edfilmfest or
>>> http://www.facebook.com/edfilmfest
>>> ===========================================================
>>> t. +44(0)131 228 4051
>>> w. http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk
>>> 88 Lothian Road, Edinburgh EH3 9BZ Scotland, United Kingdom
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/88+Lothian+Road,+Edinburgh+EH3+9BZ+Scotland,+United+Kingdom?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>> The Edinburgh International Film Festival Limited is a subsidiary of the
>>> Centre for the Moving Image. Registered in Scotland No: SC132453. VAT No:
>>> 502 548861. Registered Office: 88 Lothian Road, Edinburgh
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/88+Lothian+Road,+Edinburgh?entry=gmail&source=g>.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Frameworks mailing list
>>> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
>>> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>>>
>> --
>> Frameworks mailing list
>> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
>> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>>
> --
>
>
> Ryder Thomas White
> SENT FROM MOBILE
> ryderthomaswhite.com
> Pronouns: he/him/his
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Samirah Alkassim <deristea at gmail.com>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 17:02:01 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Thank you Kim for sharing your work! It takes a lot of stamina to write a
> book about anything, let alone what is now a niche that so many people have
> given up on. I look forward to reading the book and may end up using parts
> of it for an undergrad class I teach on film form.
>
> Congratulations on the book.
>
> Samirah Alkassim
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:10 AM Kim Knowles <kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> OOOPS!, well it seems I attached the whole book rather than the flyer
>> (mid-semester fatigue!!), so enjoy! But if you do want to buy the physical
>> copy here’s the flyer.
>>
>> Happy reading!
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Kim Knowles <kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk>
>> *Date: *Tuesday, 3 November 2020 at 13:57
>> *To: *Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
>> *Subject: *New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical Practices
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Frameworkers,
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m delighted to announce the publication of my book *Experimental Film
>> and Photochemical Practices*, part of the Palgrave Macmillan series in
>> Experimental Film and Artists’ Moving Image:
>> https://www.palgrave.com/gp/book/9783030443085. This has been an epic
>> project, shaped by many people on this list. Thank you so much to everyone
>> who contributed, both directly and indirectly.
>>
>>
>>
>> I attach a flyer, which entitles you to 20% off the original price.
>>
>>
>>
>> Description:
>>
>> This book assesses the contemporary status of photochemical film practice
>> against a backdrop of technological transition and obsolescence. It argues
>> for the continued relevance of material engagement for opening up
>> alternative ways of seeing and sensing the world. Questioning narratives of
>> replacement and notions of fetishism and nostalgia, the book sketches out
>> the contours of a photochemical renaissance driven by collective passion,
>> creative resistance and artistic reinvention. Celluloid processes continue
>> to play a key role in the evolution of experimental film aesthetics and
>> this book takes a personal journey into the work of several key
>> contemporary film artists. It provides fresh insight into the communities
>> and infrastructures that sustain this vibrant field and mobilises a wide
>> range of theoretical perspectives drawn from media archaeology, new
>> materialism, ecocriticism and social ecology.
>>
>>
>>
>> Book launch details to follow.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Kim Knowles
>>
>> Experimental Film Programmer
>>
>> EIFF is an accredited Real Living Wage employer.
>>
>> ===========================================================
>> KEEP IN TOUCH WITH EIFF
>> Become a web member for FREE and receive news and offers:
>> http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk/register
>> Follow EIFF at: https://twitter.com/edfilmfest or
>> http://www.facebook.com/edfilmfest
>> ===========================================================
>> t. +44(0)131 228 4051
>> w. http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk
>> 88 Lothian Road, Edinburgh EH3 9BZ Scotland, United Kingdom
>> The Edinburgh International Film Festival Limited is a subsidiary of the
>> Centre for the Moving Image. Registered in Scotland No: SC132453. VAT No:
>> 502 548861. Registered Office: 88 Lothian Road, Edinburgh.
>> --
>> Frameworks mailing list
>> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
>> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Florian Cramer <flrncrmr at gmail.com>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 23:03:29 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Bernard wrote:
>
> > I read the first four pages. One can hear in this the debates associated
> with higher education and the resources available to would-be students,
> hiring patterns and decisions about what programs to cut or what
> technologies to teach.
>
> Just a personal note: I read the first four pages, too, and saw that my
> paper "What is post-digital?" is discussed on the fourth. I am personally
> extremely grateful for this, because that paper had actually been written
> on the basis of, and reflecting on, my personal experience with handmade
> filmmaking and artist-run filmlabs, particularly filmwerkplaats Rotterdam
> (and previous conversations with Pip, Bernard and many others) and Esther
> Urlus, who received the really deserved coverage in this book. My paper
> ended up being completely misunderstood by new media/digital humanities
> scholars who adopted "post-digital" for their field of research. I
> actually just made this experience again this afternoon at a conference on
> "post-digital culture management" where I had been invited as the keynote
> speaker and felt rather alienated. So I am really happy to be included here.
>
> Florian
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bernard Roddy <roddybp0 at gmail.com>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 16:36:08 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Hi Florian!
>
> Every comment is unsolicited.
>
> I'll just leave the list if you all would prefer a facebook-type
> back-slapper.
>
> But I don't know how now!
>
> Bernie
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 4:05 PM Florian Cramer <flrncrmr at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bernard wrote:
>>
>> > I read the first four pages. One can hear in this the debates
>> associated with higher education and the resources available to would-be
>> students, hiring patterns and decisions about what programs to cut or what
>> technologies to teach.
>>
>> Just a personal note: I read the first four pages, too, and saw that my
>> paper "What is post-digital?" is discussed on the fourth. I am personally
>> extremely grateful for this, because that paper had actually been written
>> on the basis of, and reflecting on, my personal experience with handmade
>> filmmaking and artist-run filmlabs, particularly filmwerkplaats Rotterdam
>> (and previous conversations with Pip, Bernard and many others) and Esther
>> Urlus, who received the really deserved coverage in this book. My paper
>> ended up being completely misunderstood by new media/digital humanities
>> scholars who adopted "post-digital" for their field of research. I
>> actually just made this experience again this afternoon at a conference on
>> "post-digital culture management" where I had been invited as the keynote
>> speaker and felt rather alienated. So I am really happy to be included here.
>>
>> Florian
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Frameworks mailing list
>> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
>> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Fred Camper <f at fredcamper.com>
> To: Ryder White <ryder.white at gmail.com>, Experimental Film Discussion
> List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 16:46:41 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Ryder,
>
> I was going to reply to Roddy's idiotic post, even though I have
> generally tried to ignore him based on past experience, and thought
> better of it, but now you have (unintentionally) inspired me to enter.
>
> Respectfully, I disagree with you. In fact, I would like to see more
> criticism of things posted to FrameWords. Someone posts a video that you
> dislike; tell us what's wrong with it. We are adults; we should be able
> to take it. But don't talk about it unless you view all of it, and with
> care.
>
> The problem instead is that Roddy posted a review of a book based on the
> first four pages. He seems to be proud of himself for having read four
> pages and formed an opinion based on them. The amount of irresponsible
> disrespect inherent in sending such a critique to, what is it, a
> thousand people who are serious about film in all parts of the world, is
> mind-boggling. Why would anyone be interested in his opinion of the
> first four pages. Roddy, books often start in one place and end up in
> another, as you ought to know if you have ever read any. I would never
> post an opinion on the first four minutes of a three hour video, or even
> the first two hours of it. Someone who would write a critique on the
> first four pages of a book sounds like someone who is only more
> interested in broadcasting their own thinking than in learning from others.
>
> I have occasionally learned from books I disliked on topics that
> interested me, because the process of reading the whole thing becomes a
> process of finding out, through your own objections, what you think.
>
> The distinction I am making is important to me. Read a whole book, and,
> if you disagree with it, construct an answer, a critique, an objection.
> That is showing respect. Commenting on the first four pages is not only
> disrespectful, but moronic.
>
> Fred Camper
> Chicago.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bruce Cooper <brucecooper77 at gmail.com>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 17:56:57 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Fred, don't put Chicago after your name - you aren't worthy of that
> city.
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:48 PM Fred Camper <f at fredcamper.com> wrote:
>
>> Ryder,
>>
>> I was going to reply to Roddy's idiotic post, even though I have
>> generally tried to ignore him based on past experience, and thought
>> better of it, but now you have (unintentionally) inspired me to enter.
>>
>> Respectfully, I disagree with you. In fact, I would like to see more
>> criticism of things posted to FrameWords. Someone posts a video that you
>> dislike; tell us what's wrong with it. We are adults; we should be able
>> to take it. But don't talk about it unless you view all of it, and with
>> care.
>>
>> The problem instead is that Roddy posted a review of a book based on the
>> first four pages. He seems to be proud of himself for having read four
>> pages and formed an opinion based on them. The amount of irresponsible
>> disrespect inherent in sending such a critique to, what is it, a
>> thousand people who are serious about film in all parts of the world, is
>> mind-boggling. Why would anyone be interested in his opinion of the
>> first four pages. Roddy, books often start in one place and end up in
>> another, as you ought to know if you have ever read any. I would never
>> post an opinion on the first four minutes of a three hour video, or even
>> the first two hours of it. Someone who would write a critique on the
>> first four pages of a book sounds like someone who is only more
>> interested in broadcasting their own thinking than in learning from
>> others.
>>
>> I have occasionally learned from books I disliked on topics that
>> interested me, because the process of reading the whole thing becomes a
>> process of finding out, through your own objections, what you think.
>>
>> The distinction I am making is important to me. Read a whole book, and,
>> if you disagree with it, construct an answer, a critique, an objection.
>> That is showing respect. Commenting on the first four pages is not only
>> disrespectful, but moronic.
>>
>> Fred Camper
>> Chicago.
>>
>> --
>> Frameworks mailing list
>> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
>> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Thomas Dexter <thomas.dexter at gmail.com>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 18:51:30 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Good grief. Who will be king of the molehill? This is riveting stuff as
> usual.
>
> Kim - thank you for sharing your book and for helping to keep
> analog/alternative/hybrid/experimental moving image work
> something that can be seriously discussed.
>
> I look forward to reading more than four pages...
>
> ~t
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:58 PM Bruce Cooper <brucecooper77 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Fred, don't put Chicago after your name - you aren't worthy of that
>> city.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:48 PM Fred Camper <f at fredcamper.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ryder,
>>>
>>> I was going to reply to Roddy's idiotic post, even though I have
>>> generally tried to ignore him based on past experience, and thought
>>> better of it, but now you have (unintentionally) inspired me to enter.
>>>
>>> Respectfully, I disagree with you. In fact, I would like to see more
>>> criticism of things posted to FrameWords. Someone posts a video that you
>>> dislike; tell us what's wrong with it. We are adults; we should be able
>>> to take it. But don't talk about it unless you view all of it, and with
>>> care.
>>>
>>> The problem instead is that Roddy posted a review of a book based on the
>>> first four pages. He seems to be proud of himself for having read four
>>> pages and formed an opinion based on them. The amount of irresponsible
>>> disrespect inherent in sending such a critique to, what is it, a
>>> thousand people who are serious about film in all parts of the world, is
>>> mind-boggling. Why would anyone be interested in his opinion of the
>>> first four pages. Roddy, books often start in one place and end up in
>>> another, as you ought to know if you have ever read any. I would never
>>> post an opinion on the first four minutes of a three hour video, or even
>>> the first two hours of it. Someone who would write a critique on the
>>> first four pages of a book sounds like someone who is only more
>>> interested in broadcasting their own thinking than in learning from
>>> others.
>>>
>>> I have occasionally learned from books I disliked on topics that
>>> interested me, because the process of reading the whole thing becomes a
>>> process of finding out, through your own objections, what you think.
>>>
>>> The distinction I am making is important to me. Read a whole book, and,
>>> if you disagree with it, construct an answer, a critique, an objection.
>>> That is showing respect. Commenting on the first four pages is not only
>>> disrespectful, but moronic.
>>>
>>> Fred Camper
>>> Chicago.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Frameworks mailing list
>>> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
>>> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>>>
>> --
>> Frameworks mailing list
>> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
>> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>>
>
>
> --
>
> THOMAS M. DEXTER
>
> ARTIST / FILMMAKER / NYC
>
> (646) 260-3133
>
>
> * <https://www.instagram.com/thomasmdexter/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thomas.m.dexter> **
> <https://vimeo.com/tdexter> *
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Brandon Walley <brand500 at gmail.com>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 18:56:59 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Thank you Kim for the pdf, even if unintended. It just strengthened my
> resolve to buy a hard copy, which I will, so thanks for the discount!
>
> Brandon Walley
> www.brandonwalley.com
> vimeo.com/brandonwalley
>
> he/him/his
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 6:53 PM Thomas Dexter <thomas.dexter at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Good grief. Who will be king of the molehill? This is riveting stuff as
>> usual.
>>
>> Kim - thank you for sharing your book and for helping to keep
>> analog/alternative/hybrid/experimental moving image work
>> something that can be seriously discussed.
>>
>> I look forward to reading more than four pages...
>>
>> ~t
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:58 PM Bruce Cooper <brucecooper77 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Fred, don't put Chicago after your name - you aren't worthy of that
>>> city.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:48 PM Fred Camper <f at fredcamper.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ryder,
>>>>
>>>> I was going to reply to Roddy's idiotic post, even though I have
>>>> generally tried to ignore him based on past experience, and thought
>>>> better of it, but now you have (unintentionally) inspired me to enter.
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully, I disagree with you. In fact, I would like to see more
>>>> criticism of things posted to FrameWords. Someone posts a video that
>>>> you
>>>> dislike; tell us what's wrong with it. We are adults; we should be able
>>>> to take it. But don't talk about it unless you view all of it, and with
>>>> care.
>>>>
>>>> The problem instead is that Roddy posted a review of a book based on
>>>> the
>>>> first four pages. He seems to be proud of himself for having read four
>>>> pages and formed an opinion based on them. The amount of irresponsible
>>>> disrespect inherent in sending such a critique to, what is it, a
>>>> thousand people who are serious about film in all parts of the world,
>>>> is
>>>> mind-boggling. Why would anyone be interested in his opinion of the
>>>> first four pages. Roddy, books often start in one place and end up in
>>>> another, as you ought to know if you have ever read any. I would never
>>>> post an opinion on the first four minutes of a three hour video, or
>>>> even
>>>> the first two hours of it. Someone who would write a critique on the
>>>> first four pages of a book sounds like someone who is only more
>>>> interested in broadcasting their own thinking than in learning from
>>>> others.
>>>>
>>>> I have occasionally learned from books I disliked on topics that
>>>> interested me, because the process of reading the whole thing becomes a
>>>> process of finding out, through your own objections, what you think.
>>>>
>>>> The distinction I am making is important to me. Read a whole book, and,
>>>> if you disagree with it, construct an answer, a critique, an objection.
>>>> That is showing respect. Commenting on the first four pages is not only
>>>> disrespectful, but moronic.
>>>>
>>>> Fred Camper
>>>> Chicago.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Frameworks mailing list
>>>> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
>>>> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Frameworks mailing list
>>> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
>>> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> THOMAS M. DEXTER
>>
>> ARTIST / FILMMAKER / NYC
>>
>> (646) 260-3133
>>
>>
>> * <https://www.instagram.com/thomasmdexter/>
>> <https://www.facebook.com/thomas.m.dexter> **
>> <https://vimeo.com/tdexter> *
>> --
>> Frameworks mailing list
>> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
>> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Eric Theise <erictheise at gmail.com>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 16:07:55 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Had Fred Camper not signed off on my application to take a pair of
> animation courses at the Art Institute of Chicago as electives when I was
> finishing up a business major at another university – no portfolio to back
> me up, just a demonstrable but basic knowledge of the discipline – it would
> have taken me a lot longer to find my way to experimental film. He may not
> even be aware of this so here's a long overdue and explicit "thank you
> Fred". During my last few years in Chicago I found his writing on film and
> art in the Reader and other outlets to be helpful, thoughtful critiques of
> what was happening all over town and, after leaving Chicago, I've always
> found him willing to intelligently field arbitrary questions about
> filmmakers.
>
> So I'll argue that your assessment is completely off base, Bruce, and I'm
> surprised that you'd be the one to lob an ad hominem attack into the first
> new thread on Frameworks' new host.
>
> I'm wary of enforced civility but I've been encouraged to see the effects
> of Codes of Conduct on software development mailing lists and at
> conferences in both engineering and the liberal arts. I've asked a few
> people on Facebook why they don't participate here and until this thread
> thought that their reasons for staying away were historic.
>
> And since we have neither Code of Conduct nor Framework FAQ I'll point out
> that at the bottom of every single list message is the email address where
> you can submit a message (so that you don't have to hijack someone else's
> thread when you want to post about your screening/equipment for sale/studio
> for lease) and a link to the Frameworks/mailman configuration page where
> you can click through the archives, change useful (receive individual
> messages or digest, copies of your own posts) and obscure settings, or
> unsubscribe/resubscribe.
>
> Eric
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 2:59 PM Bruce Cooper <brucecooper77 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Fred, don't put Chicago after your name - you aren't worthy of that
>> city.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:48 PM Fred Camper <f at fredcamper.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ryder,
>>>
>>> I was going to reply to Roddy's idiotic post, even though I have
>>> generally tried to ignore him based on past experience, and thought
>>> better of it, but now you have (unintentionally) inspired me to enter.
>>>
>>> Respectfully, I disagree with you. In fact, I would like to see more
>>> criticism of things posted to FrameWords. Someone posts a video that you
>>> dislike; tell us what's wrong with it. We are adults; we should be able
>>> to take it. But don't talk about it unless you view all of it, and with
>>> care.
>>>
>>> The problem instead is that Roddy posted a review of a book based on the
>>> first four pages. He seems to be proud of himself for having read four
>>> pages and formed an opinion based on them. The amount of irresponsible
>>> disrespect inherent in sending such a critique to, what is it, a
>>> thousand people who are serious about film in all parts of the world, is
>>> mind-boggling. Why would anyone be interested in his opinion of the
>>> first four pages. Roddy, books often start in one place and end up in
>>> another, as you ought to know if you have ever read any. I would never
>>> post an opinion on the first four minutes of a three hour video, or even
>>> the first two hours of it. Someone who would write a critique on the
>>> first four pages of a book sounds like someone who is only more
>>> interested in broadcasting their own thinking than in learning from
>>> others.
>>>
>>> I have occasionally learned from books I disliked on topics that
>>> interested me, because the process of reading the whole thing becomes a
>>> process of finding out, through your own objections, what you think.
>>>
>>> The distinction I am making is important to me. Read a whole book, and,
>>> if you disagree with it, construct an answer, a critique, an objection.
>>> That is showing respect. Commenting on the first four pages is not only
>>> disrespectful, but moronic.
>>>
>>> Fred Camper
>>> Chicago.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Frameworks mailing list
>>> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
>>> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>>>
>> --
>> Frameworks mailing list
>> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
>> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Fred Camper <f at fredcamper.com>
> To: frameworks at film-gallery.org
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 18:28:18 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Eric, thanks very much, and no, I did not know that.
>
> In hindsight I should have dropped a couple of the extreme adjectives in
> my post in response to Roddy, and will keep that in mind for the future.
> I still find it incredible that someone would think it appropriate to
> post an evaluative, and rather judgmental, paragraph about a book based
> on its first four pages. Doing so violates all that I believe about how
> one should respond to books, or films. Others may disagree.
>
> I started appending "Chicago" to my name more than a decade ago, in the
> hope that others would follow, because of, for example, frustrating
> posts inviting everyone to a screening at "123 Main Street" with no
> mention of the city. We all come from different places, and nations, and
> I still wish it was easy to tell where everyone was from.
>
> But yes, Bruce wrote purely ad hominem. He does not make an argument.
>
> Fred Camper
> Chicago
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Evan Greene <evan.michael.greene at gmail.com>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 19:16:28 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Y’all sound like
> the bunch of slimy old farts ya are!
>
> My review based on the first page:
>
> This a good book!
>
> A fan of Jeanne is a friend of mine!
>
> Instead of wasting your time seeking attention here, go watch some of her
> films. There’s a bunch on her Vimeo page. Blue moon was on my mind this
> week.
>
> Peace!
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:30 PM Fred Camper <f at fredcamper.com> wrote:
>
>> Eric, thanks very much, and no, I did not know that.
>>
>> In hindsight I should have dropped a couple of the extreme adjectives in
>> my post in response to Roddy, and will keep that in mind for the future.
>> I still find it incredible that someone would think it appropriate to
>> post an evaluative, and rather judgmental, paragraph about a book based
>> on its first four pages. Doing so violates all that I believe about how
>> one should respond to books, or films. Others may disagree.
>>
>> I started appending "Chicago" to my name more than a decade ago, in the
>> hope that others would follow, because of, for example, frustrating
>> posts inviting everyone to a screening at "123 Main Street" with no
>> mention of the city. We all come from different places, and nations, and
>> I still wish it was easy to tell where everyone was from.
>>
>> But yes, Bruce wrote purely ad hominem. He does not make an argument.
>>
>> Fred Camper
>> Chicago
>>
>> --
>> Frameworks mailing list
>> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
>> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Eric Theise <erictheise at gmail.com>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 02:44:38 -0800
> Subject: [Frameworks] OOOPS! / PiL + Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices + filmstocks database
> One of the highlights of sheltering-in-place was, for me, tuning in to
> drummer Martin Atkins' Zoom reminiscences about recording and touring with
> Public Image Ltd. around the time of Flowers of Romance.
>
> "Punk as fuck".
>
> Sometimes he'd use that phrase sarcastically, e.g., to describe living a
> rock star life in the Hollywood Hills with John Lydon, petty disagreements
> about milk bottle deliveries, burning through record company advances to
> cruise to clubs in tricked out convertibles. Other times he'd use it
> literally to draw attention to his of-the-moment endeavors, executing
> scrappy campaigns to raise tens of thousands of dollars for small
> businesses before any naysayers could opine that they'd never work.
>
> It was punk as fuck, latter usage, for Kim Knowles to accidentally post a
> pdf of her book to Frameworks. I count myself among the people who don't
> have the institutional affiliation - or disposable income, even with a 20%
> discount – to grab a copy (though I will be recommending that the San
> Francisco Public Library acquire one). Hopefully others will be in a
> position to follow Brandon Walley's lead and purchase the hardcover after
> perusing the pdf.
>
> Δ
>
> Some of you know I started working with Mark Toscano on a filmstocks
> database at the end of May.
>
> OOOPS!, well it seems Release v134 disabled password protection (election
> day fatigue!!), so enjoy! https://filmstocks.horizontalboundaries.org/
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Marie Kochaver <mariko24 at gmail.com>
> To: frameworks at film-gallery.org
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:34:58 -0800
> Subject: [Frameworks] 8mm projector
>
> We have an 8mm Wards film projector, Model 885, that needs a new home. Any
> interest answer here or phone 510-215-1200. Marie
>
> [image: IMG_3127.jpeg]
>
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
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