[Frameworks] Frameworks Digest, Vol 1, Issue 5
Fred Camper
f at fredcamper.com
Thu Nov 5 15:35:07 CST 2020
Michael,
This really is appreciated. I didn't know you were in Houston. I
wouldn't mind revisiting the Rothko Chapel, and visiting other museums
for the first time. I don't think Mr. Cooper speaks for all of Chicago
either. He didn't even tell us where he is speaking from. I also know
that I can be annoying. One problem is my habit of speaking /against/
films sometimes. I do believe in the honest expression of opinions,
along with a willingness to change them, rather than just being
"supportive."
I too was nastier when I was younger! Best wishes to you.
Fred Camper
Chicago
On 11/5/2020 12:36 PM, Michael Sicinski wrote:
> Re: pointless ad hominems and four-page analyses. I left this group a
> long time ago because of all that crap, and I did my fair share of it
> in my younger days.
>
> But I will say that, although Fred and I have had disagreements over
> the years, there aren't many people I've learned more from with
> respect to experimental film. If Chicago doesn't want him (!!),
> Houston waits with open arms.
>
> ----------------------
> Michael Sicinski
> 6106 Craigway
> Spring, TX 77389
> USA
> (713) 410-4048
> [he/him/his]
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 7:50 AM <frameworks-request at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:frameworks-request at film-gallery.org>> wrote:
>
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Frameworks digest..."
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Bernard Roddy)
> 2. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Ryder White)
> 3. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Samirah Alkassim)
> 4. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Florian Cramer)
> 5. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Bernard Roddy)
> 6. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Fred Camper)
> 7. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Bruce Cooper)
> 8. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Thomas Dexter)
> 9. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Brandon Walley)
> 10. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Eric Theise)
> 11. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Fred Camper)
> 12. Re: FW: New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices (Evan Greene)
> 13. OOOPS! / PiL + Experimental Film and Photochemical Practices
> + filmstocks database (Eric Theise)
> 14. 8mm projector (Marie Kochaver)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bernard Roddy <roddybp0 at gmail.com <mailto:roddybp0 at gmail.com>>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 12:40:19 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> I read the first four pages. One can hear in this the debates
> associated with higher education and the resources available to
> would-be students, hiring patterns and decisions about what
> programs to cut or what technologies to teach. It feels like some
> kind of report to a dean or to a chief executive officer who would
> otherwise be reading the Wall Street Journal about the new iPhone
> and investment strategy. One can surmise that this discourse also
> turns on questions concerned with the liberal arts and the value
> of course work in which "currency" is not respected. Could this
> survive more fruitfully in the context of studio art programs and
> course work that include creative writing? We're looking at a
> student body that enrolls for reasons that are difficult to
> translate into other cultures or economies.
>
> Bernie
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:10 AM Kim Knowles
> <kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk
> <mailto:kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk>> wrote:
>
> OOOPS!, well it seems I attached the whole book rather than
> the flyer (mid-semester fatigue!!), so enjoy! But if you do
> want to buy the physical copy here’s the flyer.
>
> Happy reading!
>
> Kim
>
> *From: *Kim Knowles <kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk
> <mailto:kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk>>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 3 November 2020 at 13:57
> *To: *Experimental Film Discussion List
> <frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> *Subject: *New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical Practices
>
> Dear Frameworkers,
>
> I’m delighted to announce the publication of my book
> /Experimental Film and Photochemical Practices/, part of the
> Palgrave Macmillan series in Experimental Film and Artists’
> Moving Image: https://www.palgrave.com/gp/book/9783030443085.
> This has been an epic project, shaped by many people on this
> list. Thank you so much to everyone who contributed, both
> directly and indirectly.
>
> I attach a flyer, which entitles you to 20% off the original
> price.
>
> Description:
>
> This book assesses the contemporary status of photochemical
> film practice against a backdrop of technological transition
> and obsolescence. It argues for the continued relevance of
> material engagement for opening up alternative ways of seeing
> and sensing the world. Questioning narratives of replacement
> and notions of fetishism and nostalgia, the book sketches out
> the contours of a photochemical renaissance driven by
> collective passion, creative resistance and artistic
> reinvention. Celluloid processes continue to play a key role
> in the evolution of experimental film aesthetics and this book
> takes a personal journey into the work of several key
> contemporary film artists. It provides fresh insight into the
> communities and infrastructures that sustain this vibrant
> field and mobilises a wide range of theoretical perspectives
> drawn from media archaeology, new materialism, ecocriticism
> and social ecology.
>
> Book launch details to follow.
>
> All the best,
>
> Kim
>
> Kim Knowles
>
> Experimental Film Programmer
>
> EIFF is an accredited Real Living Wage employer.
>
> ===========================================================
> KEEP IN TOUCH WITH EIFF
> Become a web member for FREE and receive news and offers:
> http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk/register
> Follow EIFF at: https://twitter.com/edfilmfest or
> http://www.facebook.com/edfilmfest
> ===========================================================
> t. +44(0)131 228 4051
> w. http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk
> 88 Lothian Road, Edinburgh EH3 9BZ Scotland, United Kingdom
> The Edinburgh International Film Festival Limited is a
> subsidiary of the Centre for the Moving Image. Registered in
> Scotland No: SC132453. VAT No: 502 548861. Registered Office:
> 88 Lothian Road, Edinburgh.
>
> --
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Ryder White <ryder.white at gmail.com
> <mailto:ryder.white at gmail.com>>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 13:33:58 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Do other people find Bernie’s unsolicited critiques useful? Seems
> to me that if you don’t like it, don’t read it. But nobody needs
> you to throw shade on something they’ve put a lot of hard work into.
>
> R
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:41 Bernard Roddy <roddybp0 at gmail.com
> <mailto:roddybp0 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I read the first four pages. One can hear in this the debates
> associated with higher education and the resources available
> to would-be students, hiring patterns and decisions about what
> programs to cut or what technologies to teach. It feels like
> some kind of report to a dean or to a chief executive officer
> who would otherwise be reading the Wall Street Journal about
> the new iPhone and investment strategy. One can surmise that
> this discourse also turns on questions concerned with the
> liberal arts and the value of course work in which "currency"
> is not respected. Could this survive more fruitfully in the
> context of studio art programs and course work that include
> creative writing? We're looking at a student body that enrolls
> for reasons that are difficult to translate into other
> cultures or economies.
>
> Bernie
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:10 AM Kim Knowles
> <kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk
> <mailto:kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk>> wrote:
>
> OOOPS!, well it seems I attached the whole book rather
> than the flyer (mid-semester fatigue!!), so enjoy! But if
> you do want to buy the physical copy here’s the flyer.
>
> Happy reading!
>
> Kim
>
> *From: *Kim Knowles <kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk
> <mailto:kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk>>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 3 November 2020 at 13:57
> *To: *Experimental Film Discussion List
> <frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> *Subject: *New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical
> Practices
>
> Dear Frameworkers,
>
> I’m delighted to announce the publication of my book
> /Experimental Film and Photochemical Practices/, part of
> the Palgrave Macmillan series in Experimental Film and
> Artists’ Moving Image:
> https://www.palgrave.com/gp/book/9783030443085. This has
> been an epic project, shaped by many people on this list.
> Thank you so much to everyone who contributed, both
> directly and indirectly.
>
> I attach a flyer, which entitles you to 20% off the
> original price.
>
> Description:
>
> This book assesses the contemporary status of
> photochemical film practice against a backdrop of
> technological transition and obsolescence. It argues for
> the continued relevance of material engagement for opening
> up alternative ways of seeing and sensing the world.
> Questioning narratives of replacement and notions of
> fetishism and nostalgia, the book sketches out the
> contours of a photochemical renaissance driven by
> collective passion, creative resistance and artistic
> reinvention. Celluloid processes continue to play a key
> role in the evolution of experimental film aesthetics and
> this book takes a personal journey into the work of
> several key contemporary film artists. It provides fresh
> insight into the communities and infrastructures that
> sustain this vibrant field and mobilises a wide range of
> theoretical perspectives drawn from media archaeology, new
> materialism, ecocriticism and social ecology.
>
> Book launch details to follow.
>
> All the best,
>
> Kim
>
> Kim Knowles
>
> Experimental Film Programmer
>
> EIFF is an accredited Real Living Wage employer.
>
> ===========================================================
> KEEP IN TOUCH WITH EIFF
> Become a web member for FREE and receive news and offers:
> http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk/register
> Follow EIFF at: https://twitter.com/edfilmfest or
> http://www.facebook.com/edfilmfest
> ===========================================================
> t. +44(0)131 228 4051
> w. http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk
> 88 Lothian Road, Edinburgh EH3 9BZ Scotland, United
> Kingdom
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/88+Lothian+Road,+Edinburgh+EH3+9BZ+Scotland,+United+Kingdom?entry=gmail&source=g>
> The Edinburgh International Film Festival Limited is a
> subsidiary of the Centre for the Moving Image. Registered
> in Scotland No: SC132453. VAT No: 502 548861. Registered
> Office: 88 Lothian Road, Edinburgh
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/88+Lothian+Road,+Edinburgh?entry=gmail&source=g>.
>
>
> --
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
> --
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
> --
>
>
> Ryder Thomas White
> SENT FROM MOBILE
> ryderthomaswhite.com <http://ryderthomaswhite.com>
> Pronouns: he/him/his
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Samirah Alkassim <deristea at gmail.com
> <mailto:deristea at gmail.com>>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 17:02:01 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Thank you Kim for sharing your work! It takes a lot of stamina to
> write a book about anything, let alone what is now a niche that so
> many people have given up on. I look forward to reading the book
> and may end up using parts of it for an undergrad class I teach
> on film form.
>
> Congratulations on the book.
>
> Samirah Alkassim
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:10 AM Kim Knowles
> <kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk
> <mailto:kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk>> wrote:
>
> OOOPS!, well it seems I attached the whole book rather than
> the flyer (mid-semester fatigue!!), so enjoy! But if you do
> want to buy the physical copy here’s the flyer.
>
> Happy reading!
>
> Kim
>
> *From: *Kim Knowles <kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk
> <mailto:kim.knowles at edfilmfest.org.uk>>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 3 November 2020 at 13:57
> *To: *Experimental Film Discussion List
> <frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> *Subject: *New book: Experimental Film and Photochemical Practices
>
> Dear Frameworkers,
>
> I’m delighted to announce the publication of my book
> /Experimental Film and Photochemical Practices/, part of the
> Palgrave Macmillan series in Experimental Film and Artists’
> Moving Image: https://www.palgrave.com/gp/book/9783030443085.
> This has been an epic project, shaped by many people on this
> list. Thank you so much to everyone who contributed, both
> directly and indirectly.
>
> I attach a flyer, which entitles you to 20% off the original
> price.
>
> Description:
>
> This book assesses the contemporary status of photochemical
> film practice against a backdrop of technological transition
> and obsolescence. It argues for the continued relevance of
> material engagement for opening up alternative ways of seeing
> and sensing the world. Questioning narratives of replacement
> and notions of fetishism and nostalgia, the book sketches out
> the contours of a photochemical renaissance driven by
> collective passion, creative resistance and artistic
> reinvention. Celluloid processes continue to play a key role
> in the evolution of experimental film aesthetics and this book
> takes a personal journey into the work of several key
> contemporary film artists. It provides fresh insight into the
> communities and infrastructures that sustain this vibrant
> field and mobilises a wide range of theoretical perspectives
> drawn from media archaeology, new materialism, ecocriticism
> and social ecology.
>
> Book launch details to follow.
>
> All the best,
>
> Kim
>
> Kim Knowles
>
> Experimental Film Programmer
>
> EIFF is an accredited Real Living Wage employer.
>
> ===========================================================
> KEEP IN TOUCH WITH EIFF
> Become a web member for FREE and receive news and offers:
> http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk/register
> Follow EIFF at: https://twitter.com/edfilmfest or
> http://www.facebook.com/edfilmfest
> ===========================================================
> t. +44(0)131 228 4051
> w. http://www.edfilmfest.org.uk
> 88 Lothian Road, Edinburgh EH3 9BZ Scotland, United Kingdom
> The Edinburgh International Film Festival Limited is a
> subsidiary of the Centre for the Moving Image. Registered in
> Scotland No: SC132453. VAT No: 502 548861. Registered Office:
> 88 Lothian Road, Edinburgh.
>
> --
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Florian Cramer <flrncrmr at gmail.com <mailto:flrncrmr at gmail.com>>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 23:03:29 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Bernard wrote:
>
> > I read the first four pages. One can hear in this the debates
> associated with higher education and the resources available to
> would-be students, hiring patterns and decisions about what
> programs to cut or what technologies to teach.
>
> Just a personal note: I read the first four pages, too, and saw
> that my paper "What is post-digital?" is discussed on the fourth.
> I am personally extremely grateful for this, because that paper
> had actually been written on the basis of, and reflecting on, my
> personal experience with handmade filmmaking and artist-run
> filmlabs, particularly filmwerkplaats Rotterdam (and previous
> conversations with Pip, Bernard and many others) and Esther Urlus,
> who received the really deserved coverage in this book. My paper
> ended up being completely misunderstood by new media/digital
> humanities scholars who adopted "post-digital" for their field of
> research. I actually just made this experience again this
> afternoon at a conference on "post-digital culture management"
> where I had been invited as the keynote speaker and felt rather
> alienated. So I am really happy to be included here.
>
> Florian
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bernard Roddy <roddybp0 at gmail.com <mailto:roddybp0 at gmail.com>>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 16:36:08 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Hi Florian!
>
> Every comment is unsolicited.
>
> I'll just leave the list if you all would prefer a facebook-type
> back-slapper.
>
> But I don't know how now!
>
> Bernie
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 4:05 PM Florian Cramer <flrncrmr at gmail.com
> <mailto:flrncrmr at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Bernard wrote:
>
> > I read the first four pages. One can hear in this the
> debates associated with higher education and the resources
> available to would-be students, hiring patterns and decisions
> about what programs to cut or what technologies to teach.
>
> Just a personal note: I read the first four pages, too, and
> saw that my paper "What is post-digital?" is discussed on the
> fourth. I am personally extremely grateful for this, because
> that paper had actually been written on the basis of, and
> reflecting on, my personal experience with handmade filmmaking
> and artist-run filmlabs, particularly filmwerkplaats Rotterdam
> (and previous conversations with Pip, Bernard and many others)
> and Esther Urlus, who received the really deserved coverage in
> this book. My paper ended up being completely misunderstood by
> new media/digital humanities scholars who
> adopted "post-digital" for their field of research. I
> actually just made this experience again this afternoon at a
> conference on "post-digital culture management" where I had
> been invited as the keynote speaker and felt rather alienated.
> So I am really happy to be included here.
>
> Florian
>
>
>
> --
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Fred Camper <f at fredcamper.com <mailto:f at fredcamper.com>>
> To: Ryder White <ryder.white at gmail.com
> <mailto:ryder.white at gmail.com>>, Experimental Film Discussion List
> <frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 16:46:41 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Ryder,
>
> I was going to reply to Roddy's idiotic post, even though I have
> generally tried to ignore him based on past experience, and thought
> better of it, but now you have (unintentionally) inspired me to enter.
>
> Respectfully, I disagree with you. In fact, I would like to see more
> criticism of things posted to FrameWords. Someone posts a video
> that you
> dislike; tell us what's wrong with it. We are adults; we should be
> able
> to take it. But don't talk about it unless you view all of it, and
> with
> care.
>
> The problem instead is that Roddy posted a review of a book based
> on the
> first four pages. He seems to be proud of himself for having read
> four
> pages and formed an opinion based on them. The amount of
> irresponsible
> disrespect inherent in sending such a critique to, what is it, a
> thousand people who are serious about film in all parts of the
> world, is
> mind-boggling. Why would anyone be interested in his opinion of the
> first four pages. Roddy, books often start in one place and end up in
> another, as you ought to know if you have ever read any. I would
> never
> post an opinion on the first four minutes of a three hour video,
> or even
> the first two hours of it. Someone who would write a critique on the
> first four pages of a book sounds like someone who is only more
> interested in broadcasting their own thinking than in learning
> from others.
>
> I have occasionally learned from books I disliked on topics that
> interested me, because the process of reading the whole thing
> becomes a
> process of finding out, through your own objections, what you think.
>
> The distinction I am making is important to me. Read a whole book,
> and,
> if you disagree with it, construct an answer, a critique, an
> objection.
> That is showing respect. Commenting on the first four pages is not
> only
> disrespectful, but moronic.
>
> Fred Camper
> Chicago.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bruce Cooper <brucecooper77 at gmail.com
> <mailto:brucecooper77 at gmail.com>>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 17:56:57 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Fred, don't put Chicago after your name - you aren't worthy of
> that city.
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:48 PM Fred Camper <f at fredcamper.com
> <mailto:f at fredcamper.com>> wrote:
>
> Ryder,
>
> I was going to reply to Roddy's idiotic post, even though I have
> generally tried to ignore him based on past experience, and
> thought
> better of it, but now you have (unintentionally) inspired me
> to enter.
>
> Respectfully, I disagree with you. In fact, I would like to
> see more
> criticism of things posted to FrameWords. Someone posts a
> video that you
> dislike; tell us what's wrong with it. We are adults; we
> should be able
> to take it. But don't talk about it unless you view all of it,
> and with
> care.
>
> The problem instead is that Roddy posted a review of a book
> based on the
> first four pages. He seems to be proud of himself for having
> read four
> pages and formed an opinion based on them. The amount of
> irresponsible
> disrespect inherent in sending such a critique to, what is it, a
> thousand people who are serious about film in all parts of the
> world, is
> mind-boggling. Why would anyone be interested in his opinion
> of the
> first four pages. Roddy, books often start in one place and
> end up in
> another, as you ought to know if you have ever read any. I
> would never
> post an opinion on the first four minutes of a three hour
> video, or even
> the first two hours of it. Someone who would write a critique
> on the
> first four pages of a book sounds like someone who is only more
> interested in broadcasting their own thinking than in learning
> from others.
>
> I have occasionally learned from books I disliked on topics that
> interested me, because the process of reading the whole thing
> becomes a
> process of finding out, through your own objections, what you
> think.
>
> The distinction I am making is important to me. Read a whole
> book, and,
> if you disagree with it, construct an answer, a critique, an
> objection.
> That is showing respect. Commenting on the first four pages is
> not only
> disrespectful, but moronic.
>
> Fred Camper
> Chicago.
>
> --
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Thomas Dexter <thomas.dexter at gmail.com
> <mailto:thomas.dexter at gmail.com>>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 18:51:30 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Good grief. Who will be king of the molehill? This is
> riveting stuff as usual.
>
> Kim - thank you for sharing your book and for helping to keep
> analog/alternative/hybrid/experimental moving image work
> something that can be seriously discussed.
>
> I look forward to reading more than four pages...
>
> ~t
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:58 PM Bruce Cooper
> <brucecooper77 at gmail.com <mailto:brucecooper77 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Fred, don't put Chicago after your name - you aren't worthy
> of that city.
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:48 PM Fred Camper <f at fredcamper.com
> <mailto:f at fredcamper.com>> wrote:
>
> Ryder,
>
> I was going to reply to Roddy's idiotic post, even though
> I have
> generally tried to ignore him based on past experience,
> and thought
> better of it, but now you have (unintentionally) inspired
> me to enter.
>
> Respectfully, I disagree with you. In fact, I would like
> to see more
> criticism of things posted to FrameWords. Someone posts a
> video that you
> dislike; tell us what's wrong with it. We are adults; we
> should be able
> to take it. But don't talk about it unless you view all of
> it, and with
> care.
>
> The problem instead is that Roddy posted a review of a
> book based on the
> first four pages. He seems to be proud of himself for
> having read four
> pages and formed an opinion based on them. The amount of
> irresponsible
> disrespect inherent in sending such a critique to, what is
> it, a
> thousand people who are serious about film in all parts of
> the world, is
> mind-boggling. Why would anyone be interested in his
> opinion of the
> first four pages. Roddy, books often start in one place
> and end up in
> another, as you ought to know if you have ever read any. I
> would never
> post an opinion on the first four minutes of a three hour
> video, or even
> the first two hours of it. Someone who would write a
> critique on the
> first four pages of a book sounds like someone who is only
> more
> interested in broadcasting their own thinking than in
> learning from others.
>
> I have occasionally learned from books I disliked on
> topics that
> interested me, because the process of reading the whole
> thing becomes a
> process of finding out, through your own objections, what
> you think.
>
> The distinction I am making is important to me. Read a
> whole book, and,
> if you disagree with it, construct an answer, a critique,
> an objection.
> That is showing respect. Commenting on the first four
> pages is not only
> disrespectful, but moronic.
>
> Fred Camper
> Chicago.
>
> --
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
> --
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
>
>
> --
>
> THOMAS M. DEXTER
>
> ARTIST / FILMMAKER / NYC
>
> (646) 260-3133
>
> */<https://www.instagram.com/thomasmdexter/><https://www.facebook.com/thomas.m.dexter>
> /**/<https://vimeo.com/tdexter>/*
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Brandon Walley <brand500 at gmail.com <mailto:brand500 at gmail.com>>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 18:56:59 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Thank you Kim for the pdf, even if unintended. It just
> strengthened my resolve to buy a hard copy, which I will, so
> thanks for the discount!
>
> Brandon Walley
> www.brandonwalley.com <https://www.brandonwalley.com/>
> vimeo.com/brandonwalley <https://vimeo.com/brandonwalley>
>
> he/him/his
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 6:53 PM Thomas Dexter
> <thomas.dexter at gmail.com <mailto:thomas.dexter at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Good grief. Who will be king of the molehill? This is
> riveting stuff as usual.
>
> Kim - thank you for sharing your book and for helping to keep
> analog/alternative/hybrid/experimental moving image work
> something that can be seriously discussed.
>
> I look forward to reading more than four pages...
>
> ~t
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:58 PM Bruce Cooper
> <brucecooper77 at gmail.com <mailto:brucecooper77 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Fred, don't put Chicago after your name - you aren't
> worthy of that city.
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:48 PM Fred Camper
> <f at fredcamper.com <mailto:f at fredcamper.com>> wrote:
>
> Ryder,
>
> I was going to reply to Roddy's idiotic post, even
> though I have
> generally tried to ignore him based on past
> experience, and thought
> better of it, but now you have (unintentionally)
> inspired me to enter.
>
> Respectfully, I disagree with you. In fact, I would
> like to see more
> criticism of things posted to FrameWords. Someone
> posts a video that you
> dislike; tell us what's wrong with it. We are adults;
> we should be able
> to take it. But don't talk about it unless you view
> all of it, and with
> care.
>
> The problem instead is that Roddy posted a review of a
> book based on the
> first four pages. He seems to be proud of himself for
> having read four
> pages and formed an opinion based on them. The amount
> of irresponsible
> disrespect inherent in sending such a critique to,
> what is it, a
> thousand people who are serious about film in all
> parts of the world, is
> mind-boggling. Why would anyone be interested in his
> opinion of the
> first four pages. Roddy, books often start in one
> place and end up in
> another, as you ought to know if you have ever read
> any. I would never
> post an opinion on the first four minutes of a three
> hour video, or even
> the first two hours of it. Someone who would write a
> critique on the
> first four pages of a book sounds like someone who is
> only more
> interested in broadcasting their own thinking than in
> learning from others.
>
> I have occasionally learned from books I disliked on
> topics that
> interested me, because the process of reading the
> whole thing becomes a
> process of finding out, through your own objections,
> what you think.
>
> The distinction I am making is important to me. Read a
> whole book, and,
> if you disagree with it, construct an answer, a
> critique, an objection.
> That is showing respect. Commenting on the first four
> pages is not only
> disrespectful, but moronic.
>
> Fred Camper
> Chicago.
>
> --
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
> --
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
>
>
> --
>
> THOMAS M. DEXTER
>
> ARTIST / FILMMAKER / NYC
>
> (646) 260-3133
>
> */<https://www.instagram.com/thomasmdexter/><https://www.facebook.com/thomas.m.dexter>
> /**/<https://vimeo.com/tdexter>/*
> --
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Eric Theise <erictheise at gmail.com <mailto:erictheise at gmail.com>>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 16:07:55 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Had Fred Camper not signed off on my application to take a pair of
> animation courses at the Art Institute of Chicago as electives
> when I was finishing up a business major at another university –
> no portfolio to back me up, just a demonstrable but basic
> knowledge of the discipline – it would have taken me a lot longer
> to find my way to experimental film. He may not even be aware of
> this so here's a long overdue and explicit "thank you Fred".
> During my last few years in Chicago I found his writing on film
> and art in the Reader and other outlets to be helpful, thoughtful
> critiques of what was happening all over town and, after leaving
> Chicago, I've always found him willing to intelligently field
> arbitrary questions about filmmakers.
>
> So I'll argue that your assessment is completely off base, Bruce,
> and I'm surprised that you'd be the one to lob an ad hominem
> attack into the first new thread on Frameworks' new host.
>
> I'm wary of enforced civility but I've been encouraged to see the
> effects of Codes of Conduct on software development mailing lists
> and at conferences in both engineering and the liberal arts. I've
> asked a few people on Facebook why they don't participate here and
> until this thread thought that their reasons for staying away were
> historic.
>
> And since we have neither Code of Conduct nor Framework FAQ I'll
> point out that at the bottom of every single list message is the
> email address where you can submit a message (so that you don't
> have to hijack someone else's thread when you want to post about
> your screening/equipment for sale/studio for lease) and a link to
> the Frameworks/mailman configuration page where you can click
> through the archives, change useful (receive individual messages
> or digest, copies of your own posts) and obscure settings, or
> unsubscribe/resubscribe.
>
> Eric
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 2:59 PM Bruce Cooper
> <brucecooper77 at gmail.com <mailto:brucecooper77 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Fred, don't put Chicago after your name - you aren't worthy of
> that city.
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:48 PM Fred Camper <f at fredcamper.com
> <mailto:f at fredcamper.com>> wrote:
>
> Ryder,
>
> I was going to reply to Roddy's idiotic post, even though
> I have
> generally tried to ignore him based on past experience,
> and thought
> better of it, but now you have (unintentionally) inspired
> me to enter.
>
> Respectfully, I disagree with you. In fact, I would like
> to see more
> criticism of things posted to FrameWords. Someone posts a
> video that you
> dislike; tell us what's wrong with it. We are adults; we
> should be able
> to take it. But don't talk about it unless you view all of
> it, and with
> care.
>
> The problem instead is that Roddy posted a review of a
> book based on the
> first four pages. He seems to be proud of himself for
> having read four
> pages and formed an opinion based on them. The amount of
> irresponsible
> disrespect inherent in sending such a critique to, what is
> it, a
> thousand people who are serious about film in all parts of
> the world, is
> mind-boggling. Why would anyone be interested in his
> opinion of the
> first four pages. Roddy, books often start in one place
> and end up in
> another, as you ought to know if you have ever read any. I
> would never
> post an opinion on the first four minutes of a three hour
> video, or even
> the first two hours of it. Someone who would write a
> critique on the
> first four pages of a book sounds like someone who is only
> more
> interested in broadcasting their own thinking than in
> learning from others.
>
> I have occasionally learned from books I disliked on
> topics that
> interested me, because the process of reading the whole
> thing becomes a
> process of finding out, through your own objections, what
> you think.
>
> The distinction I am making is important to me. Read a
> whole book, and,
> if you disagree with it, construct an answer, a critique,
> an objection.
> That is showing respect. Commenting on the first four
> pages is not only
> disrespectful, but moronic.
>
> Fred Camper
> Chicago.
>
> --
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
> --
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Fred Camper <f at fredcamper.com <mailto:f at fredcamper.com>>
> To: frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 18:28:18 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Eric, thanks very much, and no, I did not know that.
>
> In hindsight I should have dropped a couple of the extreme
> adjectives in
> my post in response to Roddy, and will keep that in mind for the
> future.
> I still find it incredible that someone would think it appropriate to
> post an evaluative, and rather judgmental, paragraph about a book
> based
> on its first four pages. Doing so violates all that I believe
> about how
> one should respond to books, or films. Others may disagree.
>
> I started appending "Chicago" to my name more than a decade ago,
> in the
> hope that others would follow, because of, for example, frustrating
> posts inviting everyone to a screening at "123 Main Street" with no
> mention of the city. We all come from different places, and
> nations, and
> I still wish it was easy to tell where everyone was from.
>
> But yes, Bruce wrote purely ad hominem. He does not make an argument.
>
> Fred Camper
> Chicago
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Evan Greene <evan.michael.greene at gmail.com
> <mailto:evan.michael.greene at gmail.com>>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 19:16:28 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] FW: New book: Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices
> Y’all sound like
> the bunch of slimy old farts ya are!
>
> My review based on the first page:
>
> This a good book!
>
> A fan of Jeanne is a friend of mine!
>
> Instead of wasting your time seeking attention here, go watch
> some of her films. There’s a bunch on her Vimeo page. Blue moon
> was on my mind this week.
>
> Peace!
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 5:30 PM Fred Camper <f at fredcamper.com
> <mailto:f at fredcamper.com>> wrote:
>
> Eric, thanks very much, and no, I did not know that.
>
> In hindsight I should have dropped a couple of the extreme
> adjectives in
> my post in response to Roddy, and will keep that in mind for
> the future.
> I still find it incredible that someone would think it
> appropriate to
> post an evaluative, and rather judgmental, paragraph about a
> book based
> on its first four pages. Doing so violates all that I believe
> about how
> one should respond to books, or films. Others may disagree.
>
> I started appending "Chicago" to my name more than a decade
> ago, in the
> hope that others would follow, because of, for example,
> frustrating
> posts inviting everyone to a screening at "123 Main Street"
> with no
> mention of the city. We all come from different places, and
> nations, and
> I still wish it was easy to tell where everyone was from.
>
> But yes, Bruce wrote purely ad hominem. He does not make an
> argument.
>
> Fred Camper
> Chicago
>
> --
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Eric Theise <erictheise at gmail.com <mailto:erictheise at gmail.com>>
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List <frameworks at film-gallery.org
> <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 02:44:38 -0800
> Subject: [Frameworks] OOOPS! / PiL + Experimental Film and
> Photochemical Practices + filmstocks database
> One of the highlights of sheltering-in-place was, for me, tuning
> in to drummer Martin Atkins' Zoom reminiscences about recording
> and touring with Public Image Ltd. around the time of Flowers of
> Romance.
>
> "Punk as fuck".
>
> Sometimes he'd use that phrase sarcastically, e.g., to describe
> living a rock star life in the Hollywood Hills with John Lydon,
> petty disagreements about milk bottle deliveries, burning through
> record company advances to cruise to clubs in tricked out
> convertibles. Other times he'd use it literally to draw attention
> to his of-the-moment endeavors, executing scrappy campaigns to
> raise tens of thousands of dollars for small businesses before any
> naysayers could opine that they'd never work.
>
> It was punk as fuck, latter usage, for Kim Knowles to accidentally
> post a pdf of her book to Frameworks. I count myself among the
> people who don't have the institutional affiliation - or
> disposable income, even with a 20% discount – to grab a copy
> (though I will be recommending that the San Francisco Public
> Library acquire one). Hopefully others will be in a position to
> follow Brandon Walley's lead and purchase the hardcover after
> perusing the pdf.
>
> Δ
>
> Some of you know I started working with Mark Toscano on a
> filmstocks database at the end of May.
>
> OOOPS!, well it seems Release v134 disabled password protection
> (election day fatigue!!), so enjoy!
> https://filmstocks.horizontalboundaries.org/
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Marie Kochaver <mariko24 at gmail.com <mailto:mariko24 at gmail.com>>
> To: frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:34:58 -0800
> Subject: [Frameworks] 8mm projector
>
> We have an 8mm Wards film projector, Model 885, that needs a new
> home. Any interest answer here or phone 510-215-1200. Marie
>
> IMG_3127.jpeg
>
> Frameworks mailing list
> Frameworks at film-gallery.org <mailto:Frameworks at film-gallery.org>
> http://film-gallery.org/mailman/listinfo/frameworks_film-gallery.org
>
>
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